Commons Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Tuesday, 1 November 2005, in the House of Lords.

Commons Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage second day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Clauses 14-21 agreed to. Clauses 15 and 16 as amended. Schedule 1 under consideration.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

675 c1-66GC

Session

2005-06

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Committee of the Whole House (HL)

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Commons Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 11-EN also published.
Monday, 27 June 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Bach | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) If he would be so kind, will the noble Lord ask his noble friend, or get a message to him, to write ...

Lord Bach | 675 c30GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 71:"Page 8, line 18, at end insert ““; and" (d) the protection of archaeolog...

Show all contributions (147)

Baroness Byford | 675 c34GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation. It is a probing amendment, as he knows. I am glad that...

Lord Greaves | 675 c64GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said. I shall read it carefully, and, if ...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c66GC (Link to this contribution) Is Amendment No. 106 not moved?

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c51-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that information. This does seem very hardboiled indeed when commoner...

Lord Bach | 675 c2GC (Link to this contribution) I am glad that we can start off on a friendly note, and I shall continue on a particularly friendly ...

Earl Peel | 675 c9GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that satisfies me.

Earl Peel | 675 c9GC (Link to this contribution) Would I be right in saying that, if the owner of the land in question had given rights to people to ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c3-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 47:"Page 7, line 18, leave out ““significant number”” and insert ““majority””" ...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c16GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 60, 62 and 72 are linked in respect of the amount of land limited. Amendment No. 60 ...

Lord Bach | 675 c14GC (Link to this contribution) Of course the noble Lord will explain his amendment in his own way, but I think he ought to know tha...

Lord Bach | 675 c12GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, for 20 years—more or less. Let me see what I can do with the question of the noble Lord, Lord ...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c44GC (Link to this contribution) Two of our amendments are grouped with Amendment No. 79. I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 81 and 8...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c44GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 79:"Page 10, line 19, after ““authority”” insert ““, in association and agreemen...

Lord Bach | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help. This may be an important—if small—issue, but the answer depends very much on whi...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that and I suspect he may well be right. However, I have not been able to c...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c34GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 75:"Page 9, line 4, leave out ““previously”” and insert ““immediately before the...

Baroness Byford | 675 c35-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 77A:"Page 9, line 43, at end insert—" ““(11) Subsection (7) shall not be tak...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c34-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 77:"Page 9, line 30, after ““local”” insert ““or personal””" The noble Baroness...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c36GC (Link to this contribution) I feel that I must speak on this matter, particularly as the National Trust was originally founded i...

Lord Bach | 675 c65-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 104 and 105:"Page 31, line 12, after ““its”” insert ““provisional””""Page 31, ...

Lord Bach | 675 c64-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 100 and 101:"Page 30, line 27, leave out paragraphs (a) to (c) and insert—" ...

Lord Greaves | 675 c62-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 91A:"Page 29, line 13, at end insert—" ““( ) In the case of any land which...

Lord Bach | 675 c59-60GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 89 would require the correction of mistakes in the register under the provisions of Sc...

Lord Bach | 675 c61GC (Link to this contribution) There is certainly no answer to that. First, our amendments will amend provision for the registratio...

Lord Greaves | 675 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his kind advice. I shall not pursue the amendment but will take it...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for that generous response from the Minister, in the light of which I beg leave t...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c57-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 89:"Page 12, line 4, at end insert—" ““( ) The rectification of mistakes u...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c56-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 87:"Page 11, line 22, leave out subsection (1)." The noble Duke said: In moving...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c55GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 86:"Page 11, line 14, after ““time”” insert ““after the passing of this Act””" ...

Lord Bach | 675 c52-3GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has been so persuasive that I ask her to withdraw her amendment on the basis that...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c53GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for those comments and am sure that the noble Baroness will respond...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c52GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord decides whether to withdraw his amendment, perhaps I may place on the record t...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c52GC (Link to this contribution) In no way would I expect the noble Baroness to do anything against her wishes. I seek simply to make...

Lord Vinson | 675 c1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 45:"Page 7, line 16, leave out ““or (3)”” and insert ““, (3) or (3A)””" The nob...

Baroness Byford | 675 c2-3GC (Link to this contribution) Before my noble friend responds, perhaps I may say how grateful I am that we did not reach this amen...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask the Minister for a little clarification. When a town or village green is dedicated...

Lord Bach | 675 c9-10GC (Link to this contribution) A written agreement by the owner to access—that is what the noble Earl referred to—would prevent use...

Lord Greaves | 675 c3GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord, Lord Vinson, replies, I want to welcome what the Minister said. Can he write ...

Lord Bach | 675 c3GC (Link to this contribution) That is a very reasonable request, and I shall certainly do that.

Lord Greaves | 675 c5-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that we want to go into that debate in too much detail in the Grand Committee. However...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I had not intended to intervene regarding town and village greens, but, having looked again at the d...

Lord Bach | 675 c7GC (Link to this contribution) The Commons Registration Act 1965, as amended in 2000, provides for land to be registered as a town ...

Lord Greaves | 675 c14-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord and I am not sure whether I ought not simply to hand over my am...

Lord Lyell | 675 c15GC (Link to this contribution) I detect signs of excitement in the Committee, but may I suggest that the noble Lord first proposes ...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c16GC (Link to this contribution) How do we regard the question of size and what is significant? It seems to me that 200 square metres...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c12GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may be of a little further help to the Minister by defining it more clearly. If the area i...

Lord Bach | 675 c12GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may come back to the noble Baroness on the point in a moment because I have not yet answer...

Earl Peel | 675 c23GC (Link to this contribution) I support what my noble friend said. I listened carefully to the points that she made and it seems t...

Lord Greaves | 675 c24GC (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendments put forward by my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, althoug...

Baroness Byford | 675 c21-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, for explaining his amendments, which we support. I a...

Lord Bach | 675 c24-7GC (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting debate around these amendments. In due course, I shall speak to governmen...

Lord Bach | 675 c29GC (Link to this contribution) It would not be a 12-week consultation in the sense that the noble Baroness and I know it, as formal...

Lord Chorley | 675 c16-7GC (Link to this contribution) At Second Reading I drew attention to the problems that might arise in this part of the Bill. We hav...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c18-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 61:"Page 7, line 39, after ““land”” insert ““that is not less in area than the r...

Lord Bach | 675 c19GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Duke’s amendment provides that any area of replacement land should be the same size or lar...

Lord Greaves | 675 c19GC (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment No. 67, which is included in this group. It is similar to the amendment just...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c19-20GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. From it, one thing that we can determine is the fact that if the...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c41GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 116 is grouped with Amendment No. 78. The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, has properly classi...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c41GC (Link to this contribution) With due respect to the noble Earl—I do not wish to prolong the debate—the example he has given is v...

Earl Peel | 675 c41GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply but I fail to see the difference between the sale of c...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Thank you very much indeed.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c50-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 81B:"Page 10, line 35, at end insert—" ““( ) A commons registration author...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c50GC (Link to this contribution) In responding to the debate, particularly to the last point that the Minister made, I largely agree ...

Lord Bach | 675 c47-50GC (Link to this contribution) We move to Clause 18. Amendments Nos. 79 and 80, which were moved or spoken to by the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Bach | 675 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that I did not acknowledge how the speech of the noble Earl on Second Reading had affecte...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c30-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 73:"Page 8, line 25, at end insert—" ““(9A) An application for land to cease...

Lord Bach | 675 c33-4GC (Link to this contribution) Of course, we appreciate the motives behind the tabling of these amendments but we do not think that...

Baroness Byford | 675 c33GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 74:"Page 8, line 42, after ““remove”” insert ““, within a period of forty workin...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c34GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his kind consideration. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, ...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c39-40GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 78:"After Clause 16, insert the following new clause—" ““CHANGES IN OWNERSH...

Earl Peel | 675 c40GC (Link to this contribution) I understand the thrust of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, and I do not wish to pass j...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c66GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Wednesday 2 November at 3.30 pm.

Lord Bach | 675 c64GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 92:"Page 29, line 14, leave out ““waste land of a manor”” and insert ““land whic...

Lord Bach | 675 c64GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 98:"Page 30, line 13, after ““its”” insert ““provisional””" On Question, amendm...

Lord Bach | 675 c63-4GC (Link to this contribution) Happily, I think I can reassure the noble Lord that his amendment is not necessary. It is already po...

Lord Bach | 675 c65GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 103:"Page 31, line 7, leave out paragraphs (a) to (c) and insert—" ““(a) the...

Earl Peel | 675 c62GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord and look forward to seeing what he comes up with as a comp...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c60-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am very interested to hear what the Minister has to say. He is leaving an awful lot up to regulati...

Lord Bach | 675 c61GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 90:"Page 29, line 9, leave out ““waste land of a manor”” and insert ““land””" T...

Earl Peel | 675 c61GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister.

Lord Greaves | 675 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Two amendments in this group are in my name—Amendments Nos. 93 and 93A. In terms of the debate and t...

Lord Bach | 675 c62GC (Link to this contribution) In terms of what can be registered, we do think that it is more restrictive, but I would not go furt...

Lord Bach | 675 c55-6GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment would restrict the right conferred in Clause 19(1)(c) to inspect papers relating to a...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c56GC (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in the Minister’s reply and the fact that, once again, he has returned to the q...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c55GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his remarks and look forward to his introducing the amendments he has menti...

Lord Bach | 675 c54-5GC (Link to this contribution) The new clause is unnecessary. Local authorities retain the existing powers under Clause 43 to prote...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c53-4GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a most useful exploration of the problems that we are facing here and I am grateful to...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c52GC (Link to this contribution) It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to my Amendment No. 84. My noble friend ha...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c51GC (Link to this contribution) If I have understood the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, correctly, he intends that Amendment No. 81B would...

Lord Bach | 675 c7-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall continue for the moment; my noble friend will, I hope, be satisfied if he will wait for a mi...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c11GC (Link to this contribution) If the land is already registered as a common and people are exercising their rights of common but w...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c10-1GC (Link to this contribution) I have three questions. First, who defines ““locality””, and how can a neighbourhood in a locality o...

Lord Bach | 675 c11-2GC (Link to this contribution) On the question of who defines ““locality””, the Committee will not be surprised to hear that there ...

Lord Bach | 675 c3GC (Link to this contribution) The answer to the noble Duke’s question is ““Yes””.

Lord Vinson | 675 c3GC (Link to this contribution) In view of those welcome assurances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, wi...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c5GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Greaves, who may speak to them himself. Nobl...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c7GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to stop my noble friend in his tracks. We are dealing with the repeal of the 1965 Act, so...

Lord Greaves | 675 c15-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 59A:"Page 7, line 37, leave out from beginning to second ““the””" The noble Lor...

Lord Greaves | 675 c15GC (Link to this contribution) Of course. I beg to move.

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c12GC (Link to this contribution) For 20 years.

Lord Greaves | 675 c13-14GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 48:"Page 7, line 18, leave out from ““locality”” to ““have”” in line 19 and inse...

Baroness Byford | 675 c13GC (Link to this contribution) To avoid any further difficulties at this point, all I can say is that we shall have to read careful...

Baroness Byford | 675 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. On the process that he described, is he thinking of a formal consulta...

Lord Bach | 675 c28-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall do my best. With regard to the CROW Act, all registered common land was mapped by the Countr...

Baroness Byford | 675 c27-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for introducing Amendment No. 71, which I believe will get support from around ...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c29GC (Link to this contribution) I want to say a quick word about government Amendment No. 71. I thank the Minister for that amendmen...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c20GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 63:"Page 8, line 6, leave out subsection (6) and insert—" ““(6) The interest...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c40-1GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Earl has asked an interesting question. There may be some implications in the sale of the ...

Lord Bach | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord be kind enough to give way for a moment? Is the wording right in this amendment...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c44-5GC (Link to this contribution) In the absence of my noble friend Lord Tyler, perhaps I may speak also to Amendment No. 81A tabled i...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c43-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that extremely detailed reply. I shall certainly need to study it before I ...

Lord Bach | 675 c41-3GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to those who have spoken in this debate. Amendment No. 78, moved by the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c45GC (Link to this contribution) I am very interested in the Minister’s comments. I obviously cannot speak for my noble friend Lord T...

Lord Greaves | 675 c46-7GC (Link to this contribution) My Amendment No. 79A is in this group. It is probably time that we got onto ““may”” or ““shall”” ame...

Earl Peel | 675 c45-6GC (Link to this contribution) Whether it should be ““omission”” or ““admission”” in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, i...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c29-30GC (Link to this contribution) I make no apology about graziers’ rights having priority. The situation is somewhat at odds with the...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c32GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, made plain, his amendment would provide that an application for a de...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c31-2GC (Link to this contribution) For the benefit of the Committee, I re-emphasise my interest as a farmer—someone who, in a manner of...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c32-3GC (Link to this contribution) In response to the comments made by both the noble Baroness and the noble Duke, certain matters coul...

Lord Bach | 675 c34GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Duke. In the spirit in which I hope we are all conducting the Committee, ...

Lord Bach | 675 c36-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for moving her amendment. This is a significant matter, and I sh...

Baroness Byford | 675 c39GC (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Minister for addressing so fully each of the three amendments. The Mi...

Lord Bach | 675 c66GC (Link to this contribution) We shall move it tomorrow. This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until tomorr...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c62GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it would be sensible to complete the amendments to Schedule 1 tonight, in spite of our earli...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c59GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendment No. 113 standing in my name, and to that of my noble friend Lord Livsey...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c57GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Duke and should like to write to him when we have considered the points that he ra...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c54GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 85:"After Clause 18, insert the following new clause—" ““UNCLAIMED COMMON L...

Baroness Byford | 675 c52GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 83:"Page 11, line 1, leave out ““The High Court”” and insert ““County courts””" ...

Lord Greaves | 675 c1-2GC (Link to this contribution) I support the general thrust of the noble Lord’s amendment and shall speak to Amendments Nos. 46 and...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c2GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a cricketer of some 40 summer seasons. I support the amendment tabled by my...

Lord Bach | 675 c9GC (Link to this contribution) The answer to the noble Earl’s question is ““not necessarily””. It would not necessarily give the us...

Lord Rotherwick | 675 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that the word ““significant”” does not have to mean a majority, but could a significant...

Lord Greaves | 675 c11GC (Link to this contribution) I want to respond to the Minister’s comments on Amendments Nos. 55 and 58. In doing so, I welcome th...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c16GC (Link to this contribution) I can answer the noble Duke. If the land is the only flat area and the rest is solid rock, it can be...

Lord Lyell | 675 c15GC (Link to this contribution) I advise the Committee that if Amendment No. 59A were agreed to, I should not be able to call Amendm...

Lord Greaves | 675 c15GC (Link to this contribution) On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments ...

Lord Bach | 675 c15GC (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord knows that, with his permission, we want to take his amendment away and look ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c13GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to intervene at this point, but I do so only to point out that of course we do not have p...

Lord Bach | 675 c13GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness will allow me to intervene briefly. Whether there is confusion or not is ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c12-3GC (Link to this contribution) We certainly opened the batting well with the success of my noble friend Lord Vinson, and I think th...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c20-1GC (Link to this contribution) It might be for the convenience of the Committee if I spoke to Amendments Nos. 64 and 68 in my name ...

Lord Bach | 675 c17-8GC (Link to this contribution) The amendments relate to the circumstances in which replacement land has to be provided in any appli...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c18GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may reply to what the Minister said about my amendment. I will read very carefully what he...

Lord Greaves | 675 c18GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. Like my noble friend, I shall read carefully what...

Lord Lyell | 675 c20GC (Link to this contribution) I advise the Committee that, if Amendment No. 63 is agreed to, I will not be able to call Amendments...

Subjects

Applications

Common land

Land

Inspections

Donors

Documents

Land use

Ownership

Planning

Management

National Trust

Registration

Sports

Land Registry

Commons councils

Village greens

Legislation

Commons Bill (HL) 2005-06

Link

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