UK Parliament / Open data

Government of Wales Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Monday, 23 January 2006, in the House of Commons.
Government of Wales Bill. Committee stage first day. Clauses 92 and 93 agreed to. Clause 94 under consideration. New clauses and new Schedule considered.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
441 c1167-274 
Session
2005-06
Department
Wales Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
New schedules
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Government of Wales Bill . Explanatory Notes Bill 100-EN also published.
Thursday, 8 December 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Better governance for Wales. Welsh Affairs Select Committee first report with proceedings, evidence (HC 551 i-iv not printed separately) and appendices.
Tuesday, 29 November 2005
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Chris Bryant | 441 c1255-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes the point that there is no extension to new areas, but schedule 5 is materially...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1255 (Link to this contribution) I am going to disappoint hon. Members who have contributed to this debate, because I am going to giv...

Show all contributions (287)
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1254-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady and I have both taken a close interest in the NOMS fiasco. One of the worst aspects of...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1255 (Link to this contribution) Order. No, the hon. Gentleman would not be in order if he were to do that at this particular junctur...
Chris Bryant | 441 c1255 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I shall be in order, Sir Alan, if I talk about schedule 5, even though I shall not refer...
David Jones | 441 c1254 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman suggest, therefore, that the Scarweather Sands application was sensitively ...
Roger Williams | 441 c1253-4 (Link to this contribution) : I support both amendments moved by Plaid Cymru Members. It would be our intention to include withi...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1254 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendment No. 25, which seeks to extend the field of competence of the National A...
Roger Williams | 441 c1254 (Link to this contribution) I know the application to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I do not have as much detailed inform...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1260 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 166, in page 51, line 9, leave out
Adam Price | 441 c1257 (Link to this contribution) I cannot prove a negative either, but I should be interested to see the evidence. I suspect that the...
Kevin Brennan | 441 c1257 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that.
Adam Price | 441 c1257 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister give me an example of an occasion on which, in plenary session, the Assembly has vo...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1257 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but this is a devolution issue. Surely the Assembly itse...
Adam Price | 441 c1257 (Link to this contribution) The Minister let the cat out of the bag by saying that he would give the technical response. It was ...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1256-7 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman does not understand my point about what constitutes broadening a...
Roger Williams | 441 c1256 (Link to this contribution) On a number of occasions the Minister has prayed in aid his party’s manifesto, which stated that a L...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1256 (Link to this contribution) The best way to deal with that intervention, Sir Alan, is to write to my hon. Friend, because the ma...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1256 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that the Minister will not respond to that intervention at this juncture, as we are de...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1263 (Link to this contribution) If I begin by explaining how schedule 5 is set out, it may assist the hon. Lady to understand how th...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1263-4 (Link to this contribution) Yes, field 10 is on highways and transport. The matter would come under field 10 and still have the ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1261 (Link to this contribution) These amendments are really probing amendments in respect of amendment of schedule 5, scrutiny of wh...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1260 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 167, in page 51, line 11, leave out subsect...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1262 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes his point in his own way, and I shall make it in my way a bit later on. It is a...
Philip Hollobone | 441 c1262 (Link to this contribution) : I should like to underline the point that my hon. Friend is making. Is there not a worrying incons...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1263 (Link to this contribution) It is for the Minister to answer that point and set our minds at rest, or to come clean about the Go...
David Jones | 441 c1262 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend share my puzzlement that the Minister has repeatedly said this evening that it i...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1266 (Link to this contribution) Referring to paragraph 336 of the explanatory notes, the hon. Gentleman seeks further information an...
David Mundell | 441 c1266 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 168, in page 51, line 21, leave out subsection (4). With any legislatio...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1265-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has struggled hard with what is obviously a complicated aspect of the Bill. I shall wit...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1264 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is quite right. I now wish to explain how the Orders in Council would be...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1264 (Link to this contribution) Bearing in mind that the Minister lived next door to the other Minister, may I take it that that was...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1264 (Link to this contribution) That is a good question. I cannot give an answer off the top of my head, but I lived next door to th...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1265 (Link to this contribution) No I cannot, but I will write to the hon. Lady to let her know. I hope that I have been able to exp...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1265 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is going some way towards explaining the situation. Can he tell me under which of the...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1264-5 (Link to this contribution) I thought that I had explained the situation earlier, but I shall try to do so again. The bulkof the...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1264 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I am being stupid on this. Is the Minister telling me that a transfer of functions order rel...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) In which case, if there were a full-blown Human Rights Act challenge and if part of the Measure were...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can reassure hon. Members in this way. If in the fullness of time clarification were requi...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) That is quite different from retrospection. That is a matter of varying law by bringing it back. Ret...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1267-8 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to set out the practical process that would be gone through to ensure, as the hon. Gentl...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1266-7 (Link to this contribution) I share the concern of the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) o...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. We should all have that concern about retrospective legisla...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the Minister is seeking to reassure the Committee, but the difficulty is that we a...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1267 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman must accept from what I have said that this is basically a tidying-up exercise wh...
David Mundell | 441 c1268 (Link to this contribution) I do not doubt the Minister’s sincerity, but his responses to the queries raised by other hon. Membe...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1268 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 180, in page 51, line 26, after ‘Assembly’, insert
Nick Ainger | 441 c1273-4 (Link to this contribution) This is a large group of amendments, and I hope that the House will bear with me as I address them i...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 441 c1273 (Link to this contribution) The Minister smiled kindly in the earlier debate on the question of pre-legislative scrutiny. I know...
Mark Williams | 441 c1273 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to amendments Nos. 53 and 54, tabled by my hon. Friends. It is worth reminding ours...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1270-2 (Link to this contribution) In an earlier debate we considered the possibility of introducing a system by which this House might...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1272-3 (Link to this contribution) The purport of the amendments is exactly as the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has descri...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1268-70 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 154, in page 51, line 28, af...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I hope that I can help the hon. Gentleman. As he says, there is nothing unusual about this. It is de...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1250 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s example was a very good one, absolutely on point and has clarified the matter complet...
Adam Price | 441 c1251 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 26, in page 108, line 30, at end insert—
Lembit Opik | 441 c1253 (Link to this contribution) Why would the hon. Gentleman resist the opportunity to give local communities some say over whether ...
David Mundell | 441 c1253 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is expressing his political views in respect of the nuclear industry, but in Scot...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1251 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 25, in page 109, line 39, at end insert— '...
Adam Price | 441 c1251-2 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) appears in a second, he may want...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1252 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the Government are serious about having a genuine debate on nu...
Adam Price | 441 c1252 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree. When the Government publish the results of the consultation, it will be interestin...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield, but the hon. Lady does not appear to have done ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman think, therefore, that we were being supportive of the proposition that such...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1200-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman cannot have read the White Paper. The main thrust behind the introduction of the ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1200 (Link to this contribution) If the logic of the Minister’s argument is correct, there is no need for the legislation. If the Min...
Alan Williams | 441 c1201 (Link to this contribution) May I reassure the Minister that the Liaison Committee and its member Committees are constantly aski...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1199-200 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that we do have a mandate. We made it clear in both the UK Labour manifesto and in the m...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1200 (Link to this contribution) That is the logical conclusion. I have another example. In section 62 of the Education Act 2005, th...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1200 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the logic of the Opposition’s position is that even if we passed prim...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1205 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman consider that the passage of the part 3 measures should mean that I, as a Me...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1205 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. That is a serious issue, which is likely to continue to grow. Indeed,...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1206 (Link to this contribution) It sounds as if the hon. Gentleman is saying that he wants to institute a system that would give the...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1205-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall avoid having a major constitutional debate with the hon. Gentleman, although that is a relev...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1204 (Link to this contribution) That is a slur on not only the right hon. Gentleman, but all English Members of Parliament. Of cours...
Lord Deben | 441 c1205 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that it then becomes increasingly difficult to explain to English constitu...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope that my participation in the previous Government of Wales Bill and, indeed, the Bill that bec...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1203 (Link to this contribution) Because the Bill gives the Assembly the right to enact Assembly Measures. That is the difference bet...
Lord Deben | 441 c1203 (Link to this contribution) If the principle is as obvious as the Minister suggests, why was it not thought necessary when the o...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1203 (Link to this contribution) I speak as a former member of the Whips Office. The Secretary of State would be laying a Government ...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1202-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to confuse my hon. Friend, but we need to be clear about what we are calling draft ord...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful for the reassurances that my hon. Friend the Minister has given about the importa...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1202 (Link to this contribution) Knowing my right hon. Friend’s position, I think that he would be more than happy if the Secretary o...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1202 (Link to this contribution) How does the Minister see clause 94(7)(b) and subsection (8) fitting into the process? It appears th...
Alan Williams | 441 c1202 (Link to this contribution) We would have to do that in the limited time of one and a half hours allowed to debate the order pla...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1201-2 (Link to this contribution) Let me describe the process, and perhaps that will help my right hon. Friend. Once the pre-legislat...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I will take no lectures from the hon. Lady concerning the people of Wales, some of whom I represent....
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is trying to take us down a road that I do not wish to follow. I agree that the A...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) The point stands alone. I invite Labour Members who want the people of Wales to be given a voice in ...
Mark Tami | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Lady and her party are so fond of referendums, can she tell me how many referendums the ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1213-4 (Link to this contribution) This is not a trivia quiz; it is a serious proposition. If this is the first referendum that we give...
Peter Bone | 441 c1214 (Link to this contribution) Is that not the nub of the argument? The Government have learned from their experience with referend...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1214-5 (Link to this contribution) Ah, yes; once bitten, twice shy. I thank my hon. Friend for reminding the House of the north-east re...
Lord Deben | 441 c1215-6 (Link to this contribution) Is it not worse than that? Is it not true that when Labour politicians saw how close the result of t...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I have always had the impression, from talking to people who lived through that, that the message fr...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 48, in page 50, line 9, at end insert—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1210-1 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 6—Referendum about commencement...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I do not want to go over the point again, but if we want t...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1212 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. There is no doubt that if the people of Wales think that th...
Lord Deben | 441 c1212 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that that is especially true for those of us who are opposed to referendum...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope that in the course of our consideration of this group of amendments we will not hear about Mi...
Philip Hollobone | 441 c1212 (Link to this contribution) That is a crucial point. The National Assembly was set up after a referendum—albeit one whose result...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that that is a constitutional issue. Progress on the separation of powers is based ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank my right hon. Friend for that generous intervention, not least because I know that, in norma...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) In that case, why is the hon. Lady not calling for a referendum on the abolition of the corporate st...
David TC Davies | 441 c1223-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to pick up some of what was said by my right hon. Friend the Membe...
Lord Deben | 441 c1224 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that that gives the lie to the argument that the Labour party has a mandat...
David Jones | 441 c1224-5 (Link to this contribution) Not only did the people of Wales not vote on the issue, but the Labour party knows that, if it were ...
David Leslie Taylor | 441 c1222 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Deben | 441 c1222 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment, although the hon. Gentleman has not been present much today. That is how the La...
David Leslie Taylor | 441 c1222 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting that the arrangements put to the UK population, and ...
Lord Deben | 441 c1222-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman was not present to hear his Minister explain to us that the issue was so complica...
Lord Deben | 441 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman so often that I do not want to fall out with him on this issue. I am...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1221 (Link to this contribution) Let me make two points. First, the people of Wales voted overwhelmingly at the last election in favo...
Lord Deben | 441 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether it is reasonable to remind the House that those of us who represent English constit...
David TC Davies | 441 c1220 (Link to this contribution) : Does my right hon. Friend believe that some of Napoleon’s descendants are still hard at work compl...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1219 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) that tha...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1219-20 (Link to this contribution) I earnestly hope that it will not create difficulties between this place and the other place. Tradit...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is alarming that we should be led to believe one thing on Seco...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1219 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady does not expect me to agree with the second part of her question, but I agree with her...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1219 (Link to this contribution) I oppose the amendments, as I do not believe that the step change contained in part 3 justifies a re...
Lord Deben | 441 c1221 (Link to this contribution) I am a great believer in the Parliament in Brussels. We often find ourselves very much on the side o...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I shared many a platform with people from the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats at that time, a...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1228-30 (Link to this contribution) It was interesting to note that when the Minister began his response to this group of amendments, th...
Roger Williams | 441 c1233 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 107, in page 50, line 21, leave out from ‘competence’ to end of line 4 o...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1228 (Link to this contribution) Nick Bourne went on to say that there are also divisions in the Labour party on this issue, as evide...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1228 (Link to this contribution) As I pointed out earlier, the three main political parties in Wales stood on manifestos that made it...
Roger Williams | 441 c1246-7 (Link to this contribution) I must come clean about that. When I discussed the new schedule, I intended to enter a mea culpa on ...
Roger Williams | 441 c1246 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of the amendment and the new schedule is to redefine the legislative competence of the W...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1233-46 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New schedule 1—'RESERVED MATTERS— PART...
Roger Williams | 441 c1247 (Link to this contribution) No, because as a party we have always made it clear that we believe in transferring primary powers t...
David Jones | 441 c1247 (Link to this contribution) Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that, before any such transfer of powers took place, the Welsh people...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1225-6 (Link to this contribution) I think that everyone has got it off their chest now—this artificial indignation, saying that we hav...
David Jones | 441 c1226 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister suggesting that it was proper to offer the people of Wales a referendum on the devol...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1226 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly the point—we are devolving primary powers on a case-by-case basis. In each case, Par...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1226 (Link to this contribution) That is true, but it will happen on a case-by-case basis. The documents placed by the Government in ...
Alan Williams | 441 c1226 (Link to this contribution) : On Second Reading, I was trying to make the point that the Government would continue the process o...
Chris Ruane | 441 c1227 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman made a hash of that.
David TC Davies | 441 c1226-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall twist the Minister’s metaphor a little further. He has talked about salami slices and rasher...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1227 (Link to this contribution) The three pieces of legislation to which the Minister referred could easily be dealt with in less th...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1227 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to say that the hon. Gentleman made a bit of a hash of his question, but I d...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1227-8 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with Lord Richard on his last point. The Bill is extremely transparent and conceals nothi...
Roger Williams | 441 c1247-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I know of his interest in Welsh affairs, because h...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1248 (Link to this contribution) I shall be as brief as I can, because I know that Members wish to debate other amendments tonight. ...
David Jones | 441 c1248 (Link to this contribution) Of course, clause 94 provides that additional fields may be added to schedule 5. Has any thought bee...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1248-9 (Link to this contribution) I can give the hon. Gentleman the straight answer that there are no such plans at present. As I said...
Philip Hollobone | 441 c1247 (Link to this contribution) For those of us who do not have the privilege of representing a Welsh constituency, will the hon. Ge...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 165, in clause 93, page 51, line 1, leave out subsection (7). This is a...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1249 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 163, in page 50, line 31, leave out from ‘(4)’ to ‘or’ in line 32. Amen...
Roger Williams | 441 c1249 (Link to this contribution) I was interested to hear the reasons why the Government have chosen to define the legislative compet...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Nick Ainger | 441 c1249-50 (Link to this contribution) The term ““effective”” in this provision relates to the substance of a particular Assembly Measure. ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1177-8 (Link to this contribution) We come now to an important part of the consideration of part 3 in respect of Assembly Measures. As ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1178 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right, unfortunately. If the Government listened more often, some of the non...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1177 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 162, in clause 92, page 50,...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1179 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State shakes his head, but an MP is sent to the House to legislate. If the people o...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1178 (Link to this contribution) The criticisms that have been heaped on that legislation suggest that it was at least four too few, ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1178-9 (Link to this contribution) The Minister nods, but we have since had a correction. The difficulty that I am describing is that t...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because it takes us to the heart of ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to the debate and I wonder whether the Minister can give me some assurance...
Albert Owen | 441 c1189 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has highlighted that point on numerous occasions in the past. Is he suggesting the cr...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I think that a Joint Committee approach has worked extremely well in the past, because it promotes a...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1189 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman may know my views. I am not sure how many Orders in Council there were, but in 19...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1187-8 (Link to this contribution) I understand the temptation to use the worst-case scenario. The hon. Gentleman began by saying that ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1188 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is right, but the bar is the content of the Bill. I know that it accommodates what are...
David Jones | 441 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that delay is likely to be inherent in the procedure that is set up ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1188 (Link to this contribution) I know that that view is held by the hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues in the National Assem...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1187 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of regard for the hon. Gentleman, but the point that I was making is that there ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point clear, and I fully understand what he says...
John Bercow | 441 c1187 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has certainly offered us an impressive chronology of the events, but I put it to ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for effectively demoting you to Deputy Chairman earlier, Sir Alan. I listened intently ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1186 (Link to this contribution) I should make it clear that I did not envisage an amendable order. If an order came back after the A...
Philip Hollobone | 441 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Subsection (3) troubles me, too. It is extraordinary that the proceedings of the Assembly could be d...
John Bercow | 441 c1184 (Link to this contribution) By way of underlining the case that my hon. Friend makes, does he recall Second Reading on 9 January...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. There are some worrying aspects of part 3. I have a niggling f...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1183 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman indirectly refers to the next group of amendments on referendums, as well as to t...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) In each case, we want to achieve two things. First, we want it to be clear that the changes are what...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I hope his intervention concerns part 3. If not, this de...
Wayne David | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for finally giving way. If he is in favour of a referendum on whether Ord...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1183 (Link to this contribution) That is a matter that we will come on to debate. The group of amendments before the Committee concer...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) That would not be a matter of Conservative policy.
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I thought I had made it absolutely clear that we were not in favour of multi-option referendums. The...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to hear of that transformation on the road to Damascus on the Conservative Front Benc...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) I fear that we may be straying somewhat from the purpose of the lead amendment. The view taken by my...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1182 (Link to this contribution) May I clarify one point? The hon. Gentleman talked about a multi-option referendum, including the qu...
Wayne David | 441 c1181 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1181-2 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. What we are not prepared to do is allow the Government to manipulate the consti...
Lord Hain | 441 c1179 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and his party have to decide whether they are on the side of the Assembly, and wh...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, because I do not think that the Secretary of State understands ...
Eric Forth | 441 c1181 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend rightly said that referendums have become one of the accepted mechanisms whereby peop...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1181 (Link to this contribution) To my mind, properly conducted referendums are on issues on which Government ought to give people ch...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1180-1 (Link to this contribution) We will come back to that point in a moment. How is such a mechanism any less, or more, devolutionar...
David TC Davies | 441 c1197 (Link to this contribution) : As one of the more sceptical Assembly Members, I can assure the Minister that we do not think that...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1197 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting point, but once the hon. Gentleman has been here a little longer and been thr...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) In the 1997 referendum, the people of Wales voted by a small majority for devolution powers that wer...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1197 (Link to this contribution) Very simply, the answer is yes, because giving the Assembly enhanced legislative powers was a manife...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1196 (Link to this contribution) Before I respond to the debate, I want to point out that the amendments, and the contribution by the...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister—such to-ing and fro-ing can be helpful. He clearly did not listen full...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) I will give way again, but in response I shall simply repeat what I said before.
Nick Ainger | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) That is not giving enhanced legislative powers—it is keeping a very tight grip on such powers. I sug...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1197-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will surely see some logic in our proposal. The giving of enhanced powers to do things ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1193 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a point on which I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s comments. The...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) I think I can say on behalf of all Members that we are in for a treat when the Minister clarifies th...
Betty Williams | 441 c1194 (Link to this contribution) May I offer a simple explanation for the amendments? Could it be that none of the four Members who t...
Julie Morgan | 441 c1196 (Link to this contribution) As has been noted, devolution exists already. The Assembly is democratically elected, and we must tr...
David Jones | 441 c1196 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Lady agree that, once legislative competence has been devolved by adding a matter to...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1194 (Link to this contribution) I will not go down that path. I do not question the intellect or the parliamentary capabilities of t...
Julie Morgan | 441 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a brief contribution. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) says that part 3 ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 441 c1194-5 (Link to this contribution) I am the second main attraction. Issues relating to scrutiny may also be discussed later, particula...
David Jones | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Conservative amendments relate only to Assembly Measures, whi...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1192-3 (Link to this contribution) I have been inspired to raise such points only by the exhortation from the hon. Member for Beaconsfi...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I am merely trying to be helpful. The hon. Gentleman seems to think that our amendments to the first...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I will do so briefly, but I will probably not respond to the hon. Lady’s intervention.
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lembit Opik | 441 c1193 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. I feel that we are the warm-up act for the pol...
Roger Williams | 441 c1193 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend might have realised, much of the primary legislation passed in this place enables ...
David Jones | 441 c1190 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right; the National Assembly is a democratically constituted institution. But ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1190 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I do not regard the measure as the introduction of primary legi...
Ian Lucas | 441 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) The point about scrutiny is a valid one. That is the reason that I am so strongly in favour of Joint...
David TC Davies | 441 c1190 (Link to this contribution) First, the hon. Gentleman says there is no need for a referendum until primary legislative powers ar...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1191 (Link to this contribution) The amendments have absolutely no bearing on the present powers of the Assembly, which involve the r...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1191 (Link to this contribution) Sir Nicholas, what a delight it is to see you in the Chair. Thank you very much for giving me the op...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1191 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. The amendments propose to extend that provision so that measures that currently require prim...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) I have been wearing that particular woolly hat for about nine years, because I was here when we crea...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Beaconsfield still refuses to accept that the enhanced powers we are talking abo...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) Order. I make a plea for slightly shorter interventions. From the Chair, they appear to be becoming ...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. In effect, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is saying to me now, all we could...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1198 (Link to this contribution) I touched on that point earlier, and the Minister is absolutely right. The flaw in the argument of t...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1199 (Link to this contribution) I will give way again, hopefully to a brief intervention.
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1199 (Link to this contribution) I shall seek to be as brief as possible. In the schedule that lays out the powers we are transferrin...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1199 (Link to this contribution) The point that the hon. Gentleman does not seem able to accept is that Parliament will decide case b...
David Jones | 441 c1199 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has conceded that what is being handed over to the Assembly, on a case-by-case basis—as...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1199 (Link to this contribution) Well, we have a mandate for this—
Nick Ainger | 441 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) said in introducing this group of amendments that ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1172 (Link to this contribution) In our extensive debate today we have more or less rehearsed the debates that those of us who were i...
Wayne David | 441 c1171 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman clarify for my benefit and for that of others whether the new debating chamb...
David TC Davies | 441 c1171 (Link to this contribution) It will certainly cause a lot of confusion. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is correct that the de...
David Mundell | 441 c1169-70 (Link to this contribution) I was disappointed not to be able to contribute to the debate on 9 January. I know well, from readin...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1169 (Link to this contribution) No. I am about to finish and Members can make speeches of their own. Scotland has a Scottish Parlia...
David TC Davies | 441 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised that Plaid Cymru Members are choosing to support the amendment, because I would have ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c1170 (Link to this contribution) The amendment is worthy of support. Adverting to what has just been said about some perceived confus...
David Mundell | 441 c1170 (Link to this contribution) We are not in favour of that proposal unless it is the clear wish of the people of Wales, as evidenc...
Roger Williams | 441 c1170 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman’s party now ostensibly supports furtherance of the devolution settlement, woul...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 60, in page 50, line 5, lea...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1168 (Link to this contribution) May I welcome you, Sir Alan, to what will unquestionably be the most exciting debate that we have ha...
Albert Owen | 441 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) I am a little confused. First, the hon. Gentleman says that it is demeaning to call the body an Asse...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1169 (Link to this contribution) On the first point, the hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that this is a matter of translation. I ...
David TC Davies | 441 c1169 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Lembit Opik | 441 c1167 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 59, in page 50, line 5, leave out ‘Assembly’ and insert ‘Senedd’.
Lembit Opik | 441 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) We have demonstrated in this first debate that hon. Members are being concise. There has not been an...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 441 c1177 (Link to this contribution) Before we proceed, may I say to the Committee that the occupant of the Chair should be referred to a...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1177 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 161, in clause 92, page 50, line 9, at end insert
Lembit Opik | 441 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady makes an interesting point. I have not thought through that approach, but if in theory...
Albert Owen | 441 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I was not confused when I started listening to the hon. Gentleman, but I am now. Is he honestly sugg...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1173 (Link to this contribution) That intervention is helpful. However, I shall press the amendment to a Division all the same, for t...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is correct. He is almost entirely duplicating the debate that took place in the f...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1172 (Link to this contribution) People looking for the Senedd are less likely to get lost if they have to go to a building called th...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1254 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the way in which the National Offender Management Service has bee...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1264 (Link to this contribution) Can the Minister tell me where the provision for rural development came from in field 1? I gather th...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1202 (Link to this contribution) That is why it is so important that we have the pre-legislative scrutiny. I respond to my right hon...
David Jones | 441 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I also support the amendment wholeheartedly because it seeks to redress the fundamental dishonesty o...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c1216-9 (Link to this contribution) These are obviously selective quotes from the hon. Gentleman. However, neither of those statements i...
Adam Price | 441 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s objective, but the amendment has simply been cut and ...
Wayne David | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has a point. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) said earlier, e...
Lord Deben | 441 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister thus tell me what I should say to my constituents who are not protected in such a ...
Dai Havard | 441 c1203 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend explained that there would be an iterative process through which we would end up with...
David Jones | 441 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Is not the essential point that the Government propose the transfer of primary powers from this plac...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c1185 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend. It would also undermine the duty of care that we owe to the people of W...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The Assembly’s current workings are affected because of the amendments’ unintended consequence in te...
Lembit Opik | 441 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, because the amendments seem to have missed some...
David Mundell | 441 c1252-3 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the amendments, even though I do not propose to support them. I welcome them because they ...
Nick Ainger | 441 c1173 (Link to this contribution) To help the hon. Gentleman and to respond to the question put by the hon. Member for Chesham and Ame...
David TC Davies | 441 c1172 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Gentleman that I was not lost, but does he agree that people will get lost if we h...
Subjects
Devolved matters
Devolution
Constitutions
Delegated legislation
Assembly measures
Legislative process
Energy
Legislative competence
Functions
Legislative drafting
Police
Powers
Prisons
National Assembly for Wales
Referendums
Parliamentary scrutiny
Politics and government
Ombudsman
Ministers
Parliament
Probation
Transport
Wales
Welsh language
Reserved matters
Statutory instruments
Legislation
Government of Wales Bill 2005-06
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
Back to top