Government of Wales Bill

In each case, we want to achieve two things. First, we want it to be clear that the changes are what the people of Wales want. That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) will move the next group of amendments on the need for a referendum on the part 3 proposals. Those proposals are of as great constitutional significance as the part 4 proposals. In fact, in terms of the practical consequences of removing scrutiny by this House from the life of the people of Wales in certain areas of primary legislation, part 3 is as important as part 4, so it is in our view wrong to deny people a referendum in those circumstances. The question is what is the formula that we would offer the people of Wales? That is what the amendments in this group are about. In brief, they envisage that this House, instead of just voting to allow the Assembly to enact legislation in accordance with the framework in a draft Order in Council, would have an opportunity to see the finished product when it came back from the Assembly. The House would then have the opportunity to say yes or no to it. At one point earlier, I heard a sedentary intervention that implied that the amendments would provide some appalling obstacle or would be anti-democratic in terms of the Assembly’s rights. However, it is worth noting that the Secretary of State already possesses major residual powers under the part 3 procedure to obstruct the passage of legislation. If I am asked whether it is better for the Secretary of State to have the powers to obstruct or for this House to take a decision because it considers that the legislation is unsatisfactory, I think that, in terms of democratic accountability, it is better for this House to make the decision. The further debate of one and a half hours that would take place would be extremely important in highlighting whether Members of the House have any reservations about what the Assembly has done and about the detail on whether there was any great difference between the original instruction or permission that was given to the Assembly and the end product that came back. It is worth remembering, for example—the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) will be aware of this—that there are all sorts of mechanisms and procedures by which the Secretary of State can make the Assembly reconsider the detail of its proposals under part 3, so the idea that the Assembly has unfettered discretion under part 3 simply does not reflect the case. What is lost in part 3, as it is drafted, is our ability as Members of Parliament to serve the people of this country properly by carrying out our normal scrutiny role. I am prepared to go along with that, but only if we have the opportunity of looking at the end product as well as the proposal.