Government of Wales Bill

It was interesting to note that when the Minister began his response to this group of amendments, the first thing that he said was, ““I am so glad that Members have managed to get that off their chest.”” Perhaps a lad from Sheffield cannot understand how passionately some Conservative Members feel about Wales, but they do. Indeed, that is perhaps the nub of this debate. The Labour party cannot stand the fact that the Conservatives have been listening to the people of Wales, are now representing them across the board—both in the Assembly and in this House—and want to speak up on their behalf. We have had a good debate on this group of amendments. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) on this issue; I would have expected him to support me, but I understand his position. I hope that he may support me on some other amendments because we do make common cause in certain instances. I am surprised that he does not support my proposed device, which would give the people of Wales a greater voice. I hope that people will take note of the honest contribution of my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), who is fundamentally against referendums. None the less, he insists on voting to enable the people of Wales to have a voice through a referendum, because they were consulted on this issue in the first place and because the powers being granted reveal an almost Napoleonic tendency, as he described it. Indeed, given the power granted in clause 94(7)(b), the Secretary of State could almost be called Napoleon himself. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) also made a good speech. He pointed out that the Labour Government do not know where they are going or when they are going to get there. They certainly are not bothering to consult other people or take them with them down that road. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) also made a passionate and powerful speech, which was about protecting his constituents and the people of Wales in general. This is a complex and unique procedure that amounts to giving enhanced powers and making a fundamental change. So far as I can ascertain, the proposals in part 3 have not been scrutinised by Committees of this House in any detail, despite the Secretary of State trying to give us the opposite impression. This is not what the people of Wales voted for last time and, with respect to the Minister, it is not what they voted for at the general election. They did not have the opportunity to scrutinise the detailed proposals contained in this legislation, and they should have that opportunity. If their views were so important in the first instance, why is it right to disregard them now because of political convenience and expediency? If this provision is supposed to be compensation for a lack of time for scrutiny, it constitutes bad management. We ought not to be legislating for such a convoluted constitutional procedure simply because we cannot get three measures through. We could have got three measures through in the time that has been allocated to discussing this Bill. We could have supported a truncated Bill, which could have gone through this House relatively quickly, had the Minister removed part 3, for example. The Bill also diminishes the level of scrutiny in this House. We must remember that the people of Wales vote for MPs in this House not just from the Conservative party but from all other parties, including the Labour party. I notice that Labour Members for Wales have chosen not to contribute to this debate—they have chosen not to let us know whether they would like to grant their constituents the opportunity to have a say in this process. This is not a transparent process. We are about to enact a procedure whereby Assembly Measures cannot be amended in this House. This is a very important and complicated procedure that will be able to pass, in all but name, primary legislative powers to the Assembly without the people of Wales realising what the Government are doing. Such a confidence trick is perhaps to be admired, but I do not admire it. The Government are pulling the wool over the eyes of the people of Wales. Therefore, I have no choice but to invite Members to join me in the Lobby tonight, if they believe that the people of Wales should have a voice. If, however, they believe that the Government know best and that Napoleon should get his way, they will of course vote against the amendment. But if they do, they will rue the day that they tried to silence the people of Wales in such an inappropriate fashion. Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Committee divided: Ayes 136, Noes 304.