Government of Wales Bill

I agree with the hon. Gentleman so often that I do not want to fall out with him on this issue. I am sufficiently concerned about the unity of the United Kingdom to say that I would prefer the simpler course of enabling English Members of Parliament to vote on English matters, and not allowing those who do not represent English seats to vote on matters that are devolved to their areas. That would mean that in some cases Welsh Members could vote and in other cases they could not, and that in many cases Scottish Members could not vote at all. It strikes me as a reasonable solution. I do not want a separate Parliament, and I do not think that it would be suitable. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman that the issue before us is the nature of the referendum. I think that if I took up his point about an English Parliament, Sir Michael, you would rightly call me to order. I find it odd that the hon. Gentleman, who has upheld the democratic way in a manner that is not always observed on the Labour Benches, does not want a referendum that would give his party an opportunity to explain why it would like to go further than the Government are going. I should have thought that it would also give him an opportunity to dissect the divisions in the Labour party that have resulted in this ridiculous proposal. As we know perfectly well, notwithstanding all the ideas about Orders in Council and the Secretary of State for Wales and an hour and a half of discussion in the Select Committee, all this has come about purely because there are two diametrically opposed groups in the Labour party—those who want more powers for the Assembly, and those who want fewer powers for it. They have produced a result that appears to give more powers, but in such a complicated way that the Minister is not even prepared to try to explain it to his electorate. He clearly does not want the opportunity to do so, because it would be too difficult. He found it difficult enough to explain to the Committee, let alone the electorate. I should have thought, however, that the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and his party would be delighted to give this dying Government, in particular, an opportunity to push the proposal in the Principality. The fact that he does not want a referendum makes me worry considerably on his behalf. However, I urge the Committee to vote for the referendum not because I believe in referendums, but because I believe in keeping our word. In the last referendum, the word was that there would be a limited kind of devolution, different in nature from that provided for Scotland, and by a very small majority the proposal was passed. Whatever we hear sotto voce from the Minister about the referendum, I know perfectly well what went on. It was very simple. The Labour party snatched the last few votes by promising that it would not be all that different.