Government of Wales Bill

The hon. Gentleman was not present to hear his Minister explain to us that the issue was so complicated that it was not possible to put it in a referendum. For him to claim that it was not so complicated when it came to a general election is fatuous. He knows perfectly well that in a general election people vote on a range of matters. I do not accept that that grants any kind of mandate for change in a referendum matter. The hon. Gentleman ought to have been present to note the care with which I said—[Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman should stop blowing his top in that amazing manner and listen. I have said from the outset that I oppose referendums. I believe that Parliament ought to make the decisions. I believe that general elections are about giving mandates to parliamentarians to make decisions. The Government, however, do not believe that. The Government decided that there would be a referendum on this issue, and then said ““We make changes that are so complicated that we cannot put them to the electorate in a referendum, but the electorate understood them enough to vote in a general election.”” It is impossible to uphold that argument. The issue seems simple to us. We say ““There was a referendum. Some of us did not want it, and do not like referendums. But when a referendum has taken place, it is dishonourable to turn to the people of Wales and say ‘We are going to change the deal on which you vote without giving you an opportunity to understand clearly what we are doing, and to say whether you want it or not’.”” If the Secretary of State is not prepared to do that, I suggest that it is because he thinks he would lose—and if that is the reason, it is even more dishonourable than the first.