Government of Wales Bill

I am the second main attraction. Issues relating to scrutiny may also be discussed later, particularly when we debate clause 97, but I was prompted to speak at this stage by what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). The hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) made an interesting speech, although I do not agree with the requirement for resolutions. I think that we achieved a balance when providing for Orders in Council. Another possibility would have been primary legislation every time the Assembly wished to deal with an issue. That would have been entirely impracticable. The hon. Gentleman made some interesting points about scrutiny of the Orders in Council, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham. It was pointed out that in Northern Ireland, in the absence of a functioning elected Assembly, direct rule must rely on Orders in Council. As everyone knows, Orders in Council are unamendable, and the time taken for consideration is very short. In Northern Ireland the problem has been partly overcome through a decent system of pre-legislative scrutiny, and I think that that is what should happen in this instance. Having read the notes on clauses and the various other documents that we are obliged to read in connection with the Bill, I am not entirely convinced that we have arrived at the right answer yet. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs recommended in its report on these issues that"““Standing Orders be amended to disapply Standing Order No.118 in respect of draft Orders in Council made under the proposed new Act.””" It went on to talk about the role of the Welsh Grand Committee. The reply from the Government was effectively that it was a matter for the business managers. I am not convinced that it is. Obviously, business managers have an important role to play but the House has a right to look at how properly to scrutinise the legislation. There is a case for both the Assembly and Parliament meeting together in a Committee structure to look at that. There is a case for the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs to play a role in such legislation. In particular, there is a case seriously to question whether one and a half hours’ debate on Orders in Council is adequate. I am sure that it would be possible to extend that debate to three hours. I am sure that debates could be held on the Floor of the House if the issue were of such gravity, and that we can look at the role of the Welsh Grand Committee in these matters. That may be another way out. In all the documentation surrounding this part of the Bill, little is said about the parliamentary scrutiny of the Orders in Council, but plenty is said about the role of Government, whether it is in Cardiff or in London. Such comment is right, but then it stops. The arrangements for the Assembly Government, or the Executive as it is likely to be called, and the British Government in terms of working out what happens with the Orders in Council are well defined in the Bill. Checks and balances exist, but there is a gap as far as this place is concerned. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister would do well to return to the issue with colleagues, whether it be the Leader of the House or whoever, to consider again whether to establish formally in writing—in Standing Orders, in legislation or wherever—a system by which pre-legislative scrutiny is defined more closely and adequately, and Orders in Council themselves are not limited to one and a half hours’ debate upstairs in a Committee. That is not good enough for the issues that we are dealing with. As the hon. Member for Beaconsfield said, these are gravely important issues. This is a new form of procedure and arrangement for the House of Commons, so there is nothing to stop us having a new form of scrutiny. I look forward to the response of my hon. Friend the Minister, but these are important issues and I am sure that many Labour Members agree with my argument.