Commons Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Wednesday, 9 November 2005, in the House of Lords.

Commons Bill (HL). Lords committee stage fourth day. Grand Committee off the floor of the House (Moses room). Clauses 30-33 as amended agreed to. Clauses 34 and 35 agreed to.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

675 c181-240GC

Session

2005-06

Department

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Committee of the Whole House (HL)

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Commons Bill (HL). Explanatory Notes HL Bill 11-EN also published.
Monday, 27 June 2005
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Earl Peel | 675 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution) I support the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, about bracken. I declare an interest as, to ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c193-4GC (Link to this contribution) I must seriously disagree with the noble Earl about what would happen if a commons association, prop...

Show all contributions (156)

Lord Bach | 675 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I think that it would be best if I wrote to the noble Duke on what his amendment suggests. Amendmen...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c202GC (Link to this contribution) The commoners on Gilwern Hill know pretty well everyone around Llandrindod Wells, Builth Wells or wh...

Lord Chorley | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I do not understand why subsection (3) includes gorse and not bracken, which is a far more significa...

Lord Bach | 675 c231GC (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords have been very persuasive on this point. I have changed my mind. I shall take it away be...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c233-4GC (Link to this contribution) There are a number of issues contained within the consequential provisions in Clause 34. We believe,...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution) I have tabled Amendment No. 187 in this group. I agree with the noble Duke that these issues are una...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c221GC (Link to this contribution) Surely the somebody would be the bank manager who had lent money on the basis of no security. When t...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c237GC (Link to this contribution) We have had a useful debate, and I thank the Minister for his detailed comments on the clause. Howev...

Lord Greaves | 675 c236GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, as I am sure are the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and my noble friend...

Lord Bach | 675 c203GC (Link to this contribution) It comes back to the question of enforcement. It cannot be a duty or expectation that commoners or o...

Lord Chorley | 675 c217GC (Link to this contribution) In support of the query raised by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, what will be the tax statu...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c217GC (Link to this contribution) I add my voice to those who have raised concerns about Clause 31(2)(c) and (d). I am especially exer...

Lord Rotherwick | 675 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 170A. It proposes a defined description of nature conservation in rel...

Lord Bach | 675 c208GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendments Nos. 165 to 166:"Page 16, line 34, leave out ““livestock”” and insert ““animal””""P...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c238GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 192:"Page 19, line 22, at end insert ““to an adjacent commons association for a ...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c190GC (Link to this contribution) The kind of activities we have in mind in ““agricultural activities””, other than grazing, referred ...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Williams, makes an important point. I want to focus on the word ““vegetation””....

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c181GC (Link to this contribution) I remind Members of the Committee of the exact procedure. There will probably be a Division in the H...

Baroness Byford | 675 c181-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 149:"Page 16, line 18, leave out paragraph (a)." The noble Baroness said: We ar...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c182-3GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to comment briefly on all three of the amendments in the group. Amendment No. 149 addr...

Lord Tyler | 675 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for taking a robust attitude towards these amendments. My fear is perh...

Lord Bach | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) Government Amendment No. 142 allows an association to be given functions related to the management o...

Earl Peel | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) We should probably be grateful that we do not have Lord Kilbracken in the House.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c197GC (Link to this contribution) I think that those who typeset Amendment No. 164 anticipated how my noble friend Lord Greaves and th...

Lord Tyler | 675 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this group of amendments—which are, as the noble Baron...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c193GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment No. 154, the second amendment listed in this group. It relates to subsect...

Earl Peel | 675 c193GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak briefly to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Williams, because it gives me ...

Earl Peel | 675 c194GC (Link to this contribution) As the owner of a common, I have had similar conversations with various clubs and they have assured ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I find his response unsatisfactory. The point about...

Lord Bach | 675 c202GC (Link to this contribution) How are the commoners or the landowners expected to enforce any rules there might be? The law is alr...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) Helicopters are another expense involved in bracken clearing.

Lord Greaves | 675 c232GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 189:"Page 18, line 29, after ““authority”” insert ““after public advertisement a...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. On Question, amendment agreed to. [Amendments Nos. 186 to ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c233GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for his comments. Given the fair way in which the Minister dea...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c228GC (Link to this contribution) Dealing with the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, we have decided to require the pri...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c228GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that. But there will not be many such rules, so a list could be drawn up. If a commons ...

Earl Peel | 675 c225GC (Link to this contribution) Returning to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who referred to past practices as determi...

Lord Elton | 675 c224GC (Link to this contribution) If the amendment is agreed to, I shall be unable to call Amendment No. 182.

Lord Bach | 675 c222-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 181:"Page 17, line 18, leave out subsections (4) to (6)." The noble Lord said: ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt. There is a borrower; there is a bank; the borrower contracts with the bank....

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c221GC (Link to this contribution) But it is not an obligation. When one is setting a framework in a piece of legislation, it is wise, ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c236-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 191:"Page 19, line 8, leave out subsection (4)." The noble Baroness said: I cou...

Baroness Byford | 675 c237GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill reads:"““The power under subsection (1) includes power to amend or repeal an enactment””."

Lord Bach | 675 c237GC (Link to this contribution) I am telling the noble Baroness that, in the context of Clause 34, that refers to the enactments set...

Earl Peel | 675 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) Further to what the noble Lord, Lord Williams, said, it would be inconceivable that the owner of a c...

Lord Bach | 675 c204-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 153:"Page 16, line 21, leave out ““the grazing of livestock”” and insert ““grazi...

Baroness Byford | 675 c205GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for bringing forward these government amendments. Obviously they were introduce...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 174:"Page 17, line 5, at the end insert ““as long as it does not remove, infring...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) These amendments have created much interest. Amendment No. 174 would add the words,"““as long as it ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c214GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness decides what to do with her amendment, perhaps I may reinforce her argumen...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c214GC (Link to this contribution) Our Amendment No. 252 may help to resolve the issue.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c213GC (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the ““public interest”” is the general areas of recreation rather than ““th...

Baroness Byford | 675 c213-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification, but it does not answer my question. At this stage, I will leav...

Baroness Byford | 675 c214GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to both noble Lords for adding to the debate on my amendment. I look forward to receiv...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c213GC (Link to this contribution) That saves me making that point, because that is exactly the sort of case that I had in mind when I ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for her response. To take the easy bit first, which is our Amendment No. 172, t...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c213GC (Link to this contribution) Inspiration has struck. We understand that, in addition to archaeological remains that are listed, m...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c210-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am quite sure that the Committee does not expect me to comment on current historical activity. In...

Lord Chorley | 675 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to refer to Amendment No. 171, which the Minister has not yet moved. I raised that poin...

Lord Bach | 675 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 163:"Page 16, line 28, after ““or”” insert ““the exercise of””" The noble Lord ...

Lord Bach | 675 c238-9GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 192 would constrain the ability of the national authority to transfer the rights, prop...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c239-40GC (Link to this contribution) I am interested to hear what the Minister has to say on this subject. He has raised some interesting...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c238GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for what she has just said because I was about to say exactly the same th...

Baroness Byford | 675 c238GC (Link to this contribution) I am immensely grateful to the Minister. With regard to the Question whether the clause shall stand ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c190-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 152:"Page 16, line 20, at end insert—" ““( ) claiming entitlements to envi...

Baroness Byford | 675 c189GC (Link to this contribution) I presume that ““agricultural activities”” does not have a broader meaning; ““activities”” is not de...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, but we are not talking about killing sheep; we are talking about hefting sheep. It is the activ...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Not many people in this world look after grouse on grouse moors other than with a view to shooting t...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c190GC (Link to this contribution) No, my understanding is that grouse rearing would be included but shooting would not.

Baroness Byford | 675 c188GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, which has been slightly longer...

Lord Bach | 675 c188GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness replies, I have spoken at some length on these issues and, as the noble Ea...

Lord Brougham and Vaux | 675 c182GC (Link to this contribution) If this amendment is agreed to, I shall not be able to call Amendment No. 150 for reasons of pre-emp...

Lord Bach | 675 c183-6GC (Link to this contribution) We are still discussing the role of commons associations in Part 2. Commons associations are of cour...

Earl Peel | 675 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that comprehensive reply. When we reach my own Amendment No. 164A, I shall ...

Earl Peel | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I shall sit down now.

Duke of Montrose | 675 c197GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, have spent 40 years dealing with bracken, and I shall not bore the Committee with the detail...

Lord Bach | 675 c194GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me if I explain. That is because of the changes introduced by go...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c192-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may follow up on what the noble Lord, Lord Williams, introduced and also speak to our Amen...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 152. It is clear that a number of commons associations will apply for Tir Go...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Williams. I can cite a case in which 1,500 people and 500 vehicles il...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c233GC (Link to this contribution) We completely share the worries expressed by my noble friend Lord Greaves and the noble Baroness, La...

Lord Tyler | 675 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend. It will be bitterly resented if the Bill does not provide a clear way for...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c228-9GC (Link to this contribution) It would be possible for a national authority to draw up a database of standard rules—for example CC...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c229GC (Link to this contribution) I am aware of that. In my case it was not a lamb frisking to get back in; it was a rather elderly mu...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c229GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister sits down and the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, replies, I should point out that ...

Lord Bach | 675 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 185:"Page 18, line 20, leave out ““that section”” and insert ““section 25””" Th...

Baroness Byford | 675 c229GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, who is quite right. Returning to the issue of bracken ...

Baroness Byford | 675 c227GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for responding to the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regul...

Lord Tyler | 675 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, am grateful to the Minister for bringing the amendment forward and for the way in which he h...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c224GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling the amendment. The Bill as drafted seemed a little odd ...

Lord Bach | 675 c222GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 180:"Page 17, line 14, after ““or”” insert ““the exercise””" On Question, amend...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c226-7GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 183:"Page 17, line 35, after ““made”” insert ““with the consent of the appropria...

Lord Bach | 675 c225-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 182A:"After Clause 31, insert the following new clause—" ““CONSENT (1) Su...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c220GC (Link to this contribution) On the question of acquiring or disposing of land, does the noble Baroness know of any commons assoc...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I shall continue to address the question of raising money by a commons association. I shall speak pa...

Baroness Byford | 675 c221GC (Link to this contribution) Under ““Ancillary powers””, the Bill clearly states:"““(c) raise money””." It does not refer to rai...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) I wish to come back on something that the Minister said in reply to some of my amendments. Of course...

Baroness Byford | 675 c237GC (Link to this contribution) It is getting late and I fear we are becoming more confused. We will in due course turn to the Quest...

Lord Bach | 675 c234-6GC (Link to this contribution) This has been a useful debate. Let me try and persuade noble Lords why Clause 34 is important. They ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his helpful reply, and I thought that the bracken debate was interesting an...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c204GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Earl of Caithness | 675 c205GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his Amendment No. 153. It covers the point we were discussing last week and...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) I asked a question that the noble Baroness has not answered, but I am very happy to await a reply by...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I can assure the noble Lord that the reply from me in writing will be far more satisfactory than any...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to my Amendment No. 176. Broadly speaking,...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c211-3GC (Link to this contribution) I hope to be able to return to the noble Lord’s question when I reach government Amendment No. 171. ...

Lord Rotherwick | 675 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but I did not want to mention this until she had respond...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 169 takes out the functions for the commons association to have functions for the publ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c209GC (Link to this contribution) It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak to my Amendment No. 170 and to Amendment N...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c207GC (Link to this contribution) I assume that the Minister will not dissent from the proposition that the way in which these fees ar...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c207GC (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to Amendments Nos. 163A and 180A in this group. In the first instance I am slightly ...

Lord Bach | 675 c206GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 157:"Page 16, line 25, leave out paragraph (g)." On Question, amendment agreed ...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c189GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 150 is very important—it makes an important change to the Bill as originally drafted. ...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c190GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Baroness saying that shooting and shooting interests are contained within the definitio...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c188-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 150:"Page 16, line 18, leave out ““the agricultural use of”” and insert ““agricu...

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c197GC (Link to this contribution) When I was a farming student, new chemicals were on trial to get rid of bracken, and they did. That ...

Lord Bach | 675 c197-200GC (Link to this contribution) This has been quite a group of amendments. I must not forget that at the end comes government Amendm...

Lord Chorley | 675 c197GC (Link to this contribution) I feel I must come in on the subject of bracken since we are having a field day. I have a lot of bra...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c197GC (Link to this contribution) The problem is that on Gilwern Hill farmers have a right to take bracken out for the sheep for the w...

Lord Greaves | 675 c194GC (Link to this contribution) I have three amendments in this group: Amendments Nos. 158, 161A and 164, which return to the manage...

Lord Greaves | 675 c194-5GC (Link to this contribution) As the Minister said, that is to be replaced with the catch-all phrase of ““vegetation””. That is th...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the predicament of the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and his neighbours. Is n...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c201GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment is very specifically drawn. It is not to do with access for the purpose of agricultura...

Lord Bach | 675 c200GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s point is so good that, if the Committee agrees, we will take out paragraph (g) of s...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I too should like to express my concerns about Clause 33(3). It is a point that I raised in my remar...

Lord Bach | 675 c233GC (Link to this contribution) The speech I am about to make will involve what I was going to say in the stand-part debate because ...

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer | 675 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Minister says is the reason for Amendment No. 183 but I am slightly concerned about ...

Duke of Montrose | 675 c230GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. I presumed that that was the intention all along and it is very helpf...

Lord Bach | 675 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the support for the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, asked what are the oth...

Baroness Byford | 675 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for tabling these two amendments. It was in response to our earlier lo...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) I remind members of the Committee that when dealing with a body corporate no individual liability ar...

Earl Peel | 675 c220GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that Amendment No. 174, in the name of my noble friend Lady Byford, was not satisf...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c220GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may pursue the question of ““body corporate”” and who is liable. Suppose that our commons ...

Lord Bach | 675 c237-8GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I owe a word of explanation to the noble Baroness. Having looked at the matter again, I...

Lord Bach | 675 c237GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry for having failed to explain the matter. Subsection (4) refers to subsection (2); it does...

Lord Bach | 675 c236GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 190:"Page 19, line 1, after ““local”” insert ““or personal””" On Question, amen...

Lord Williams of Elvel | 675 c203GC (Link to this contribution) Of course the landowner would consult the graziers but there would be no formal mechanism for such c...

Lord Bach | 675 c204GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises an interesting point and we will write to her.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c205GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 156 is related to Clause 30(3)(f),"““removing livestock unlawfully permitted to graze”...

Lord Inglewood | 675 c217GC (Link to this contribution) As we have come in this direction, once a commons association is established—my understanding is tha...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c217-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am not a lawyer—I enter that caveat. However, I know that people who dispose of property belonging...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 675 c214GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 171:"Page 17, line 2, at end insert ““; and" ( ) the protection of archaeo...

Earl of Caithness | 675 c213GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness was absolutely right to say that it was a significant omission to leave out the p...

Lord Tyler | 675 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I warmly welcome government Amendment No. 171. I contemplated tabling a similar amendment and I noti...

Lord Bach | 675 c208GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 168:"Page 16, line 37, leave out ““for the purpose specified in subsection (2)””...

Baroness Byford | 675 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 169:"Page 16, line 40, leave out paragraph (b)." The noble Baroness said: In mo...

Lord Bach | 675 c207-8GC (Link to this contribution) That is right and I do not dissent from that proposition. This is easy. However, I have not yet res...

Lord Bach | 675 c207GC (Link to this contribution) I can give the noble Earl that reassurance.

Earl Peel | 675 c207GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 164A tabled in my name is also included in this group. However, I do not think that th...

Baroness Fookes | 675 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot now call Amendment No. 158 for reasons of pre-emption. [Amendments Nos. 159 to 162 not mov...

Lord Bach | 675 c206GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 155:"Page 16, line 24, leave out ““livestock”” and insert ““animals””" On Quest...

Lord Bach | 675 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) The two amendments essentially would allow commons associations to undertake a similar activity: to ...

Lord Bach | 675 c240GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday 14 November at 3.30 pm.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth | 675 c238GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment in principle, but I am not sure about the period of 12 calendar months; it ...

Subjects

Access

Agriculture

Common land

Fees and charges

Functions

Land use

Grazing land

Ownership

Powers

Membership

Payments

Management

Nature conservation

Registration

Commons councils

Village greens

Legislation

Commons Bill (HL) 2005-06

Link

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