Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

It is a great pleasure to get to part 3 under your chairmanship, Ms Primarolo. I shall speak to c...

My hon. Friend is aware, as we all are, of the clamour for at least 20 years for the reform of lo...

My hon. Friend is right. Parts 1 and 2 have been shown over the past few days to be utterly defic...

My hon. Friend hit the nail on the head when he said that part 3 came from the high-level discuss...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Government cannot win the next general election on the ar...

Does not part 3 show that the Bill is partisan, and is it not one of the main reasons the Bill ha...

Absolutely. Parts 1 and 2 have been shown to have lost public confidence. I am happy to be correc...

Does my hon. Friend find it as bizarre as I do that the Government are demanding that trade union...

My hon. Friend makes an interesting intervention—the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innov...

My hon. Friend raises some fundamental human rights issues. When I asked the Deputy Leader of the...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We will move on to clause 37 later this afternoon, when we wi...

My hon. Friend will remember that Adrian Beecroft appeared before the Enterprise and Regulatory R...

Absolutely, which is why we should be addressing those issues in the Beecroft report, because the...

On the question of consultation, my hon. Friend has quoted from the TUC’s evidence, which was giv...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. As Chair of the Political and Constitution...

Was not my hon. Friend astonished by the fact that, while 11 Conservative MPs last night voted ag...

My hon. Friend tempts me to use unparliamentary language, but I will not go down that route. It i...

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

I will take one more intervention, but then I will have to make some progress.

I do not want to tempt the hon. Gentleman into using unparliamentary language, but he is factuall...

rose —

Order. Perhaps we could return to clause 36 and the amendments before us. General Third Reading p...

Thank you, Ms Primarolo. You are absolutely right. That would have tempted me to discuss the hon....

When the hon. Gentleman refers to the 1992 Act, he is of course referring to legislation from the...

If the hon. Gentleman wants to bring forward a general review of any legislation, he is more than...

On a point of order, Ms Primarolo. My Committee looked at the White Paper on the lobbying Bill ab...

The hon. Gentleman is very experienced and has been a Member for a long time. As he knows, what h...

Thank you, Ms Primarolo, for that ruling on an important point of order. I remind my hon. Friend,...

Will my hon. Friend share with the Committee why he thinks a Government who came to power saying ...

That is a good question. The Government have a policy initiative of taking out two regulations fo...

Is not my hon. Friend’s point the fact that the Government do not want to regulate people such as...

My hon. Friend tempts me to stray from the amendments, but she is absolutely right. Week after we...

I congratulate my hon. Friend on outlining why the unions are being singled out. If the issue is ...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why I am so concerned that clause 36 has been added t...

Could not the shadow Minister answer our hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) in t...

Order. As I said to the hon. Gentleman, I will decide what is in order. If a Bill has unrelated p...

Thank you for that ruling, Ms Primarolo. All I would say is that my hon. Friend the Member for Mi...

I’ll get on the phone.

I am sure that he will be phoning round urgently to get that going.

rose—

I will give way once more, and then I must make progress.

The hon. Gentleman must appreciate that shareholder registers are much more highly regulated than...

I do not think that shareholders are balloted on remuneration; they do not have much ability to s...

rose—

I am happy to give way one last time to the hon. Gentleman.

The Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 does deal with votes for remuneration. Indeed, comp...

At least when everybody is balloted on anything to do with trade union membership, it is complete...

The hon. Gentleman says that no one made a complaint. Can that not be turned around? If members o...

Members of the public are suffering not because of the trade unions but because of the policies o...

Is the hon. Gentleman maintaining that because union members are not complaining about their own ...

I keep giving way to the hon. Gentleman to be polite, but his interventions are complete nonsense...

People who are not members of a union may have a complaint against, for instance, a vote that is ...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the registration of 7.2 million trade union members. If an...

My hon. Friend will be aware that the legal strictures on trade unions with regard to balloting a...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are getting to the crux of the issue, because it is becomi...

I had hoped that we would get an explanation as to why this part of the Bill is essential. If the...

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. No general secretary of a trade union, whether it is affi...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill was supposed to deal with moneys being exchanged so that ...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am not even sure whether Government Members have read amend...

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the very small number of complaints made to the certificatio...

My hon. Friend is right. Our amendment would allow people who have a proper complaint about a tra...

It is interesting that my hon. Friend has gone back to 1987, because the root of the original est...

The trade unions have complied with the legislation, with bells on, every single year since it wa...

My hon. Friend is making a powerful and compelling speech. I am tempted, as the organiser of the ...

I am delighted that this Committee sitting has allowed the Chair of the Political and Constitutio...

Is there not a legal contradiction in the Bill? A trade union has a duty under the Data Protectio...

My hon. Friend is right that there are contradictions with the Data Protection Act and an inconsi...

It is extremely important with Bills of this nature that there is consultation with all parties t...

There is a very strong view that part 3 contravenes the European convention on human rights. The ...

I will happily explain. The assessment has been in the public domain for more than eight days on ...

Problems of communication are not the responsibility of the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member...

When my hon. Friend gets an impact assessment, would he mind popping one over to the Political an...

We are compiling a rather expensive list of photocopying.

I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that although he has been searching so hard for the impact ass...

It should be in the Vote Office.

I happily accept that it should be in the Vote Office. We are looking into that now.

I have looked at the pages of the gov.uk website that relate to the Bill incessantly over the pas...

On process and transparency, will the hon. Gentleman advise the Committee who drafted the Opposit...

That kind of intervention is pathetic. Let me put it on the record, in front of the Committee and...

Given that my hon. Friend has been so busy drafting his amendments, he might not have heard all t...

I am delighted that my hon. Friend intervened, because it allowed me to look at the Register of M...

Does that measure not confirm to the country at large that the Government are not bothered about ...

My hon. Friend makes the point for me, but it is true that the 7.2 million trade union members wi...

rose—

Order. Before I call the next speaker, I should say that the amendments are narrowly drafted. I k...

I declare any interests I have in the debate arising from my entry in the Register of Members’ Fi...

Does the hon. Gentleman believe that, when the Prime Minister said that the next big scandal to b...

I will come to the hon. Lady’s point— I might agree to an extent with some of what she says.

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that trade unions are one of the most highly regulated institu...

I actually think the opposite. I will be upfront about this. In the previous Parliament I did a l...

The hon. Gentleman says that the law is in need of review and change, but can he answer one simpl...

I answered that specifically in reply to a question put by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (I...

The hon. Gentleman mentions union intimidation. Does he want to provide some examples of his expe...

Order. I do not think we need to get into these wider areas. I repeat that this is a narrow amend...

Unison and Unite now account for approximately 40% of total union membership. As such, it follows...

The hon. Gentleman is being generous with his time. Will he answer the question I asked my hon. F...

I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that the last time I visited the certification office was mor...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Regarding his invo...

That is not an issue I have investigated. As I said, complaints emanate from members of unions, n...

The Chair said that we were perhaps veering off the subject, but I have to come back to the serio...

The hon. Gentleman is clearly not listening to what I have been saying. I have not been saying th...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is reeling off a list of potential obligat...

Let me give the hon. Gentleman an example. If we are to have the provision to audit members, we s...

Order. I have given the hon. Gentleman some leeway, but if he looks—as I know he has: he is a ver...

Thank you for that clarification, Sir Edward.

The point of amendment 103 is to ask the purp...

The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), like others, will be aware from when he did his law...

Order. The hon. Lady is introducing her speech. I give a certain latitude, but I know that, as a ...

I will move on swiftly, Sir Edward.

Let me return to the trade union aspect. The provisions...

Having left school at 15 and been a member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers,...

I accept that there are many responsible employers, small as well as large, but the hon. Gentlema...

My hon. Friend is coming to the nub of some of the concerns about the provisions we are debating....

I completely agree with what my hon. Friend says about blacklisting and intimidation.

When ...

Does my hon. Friend agree that the reason for including clause 36 in the Bill is completely trans...

rose—

Order. Before the hon. Lady replies to that point, may I suggest that she will want to return to ...

I will come to that, Sir Edward. The need for certification will cause financial harm to the unio...

It is a real pleasure to follow the impassioned speech of the hon. Member for Bolton South East (...

Jolliness?

Some Members have been teasing the Conservative party about its refusal to publish its membership...

Are you a union member?

I am not actually a member of trade union, and I never have been. [ Interruption. ] Hon. Members ...

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we are one of the only European countries that does not hav...

The short answer is no. Clause 36 introduces a duty to provide a membership audit certificate. I ...

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I shall pass a membership form to him befo...

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Local councils around the country have to confront a numbe...

The person that the hon. Gentleman is talking about has that right now. There is no point in this...

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful intervention. I grew up in Liverpool in the 1980s and I remem...

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the points he is raising are already covered by the Trade Un...

I am delighted that hon. Members believe that everything I have said is already covered by variou...

The hon. Gentleman referred to the ’80s, but there has been a great deal of trade union law since...

I am delighted to hear that hon. Members believe that the issues I am raising have already been d...

There is a genuine point—he may or may not have taken it on board—about the big general unions. B...

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The biggest challenge those unions face—it is perhaps...

Has the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to look at how much this will cost the trade unions? Do...

The hon. Lady will be delighted to know that I read the impact assessment, so I understand that i...

The hon. Gentleman is most gracious in taking interventions. He said that he agreed that legislat...

I am not voting for duplication. I am going to vote for this part of the Bill. I am being informe...

It is pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland). He declared himself ...

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend’s critique of the legislation and, in particular, with...

I shall respond to my hon. Friend’s intervention in a moment. I want my speech to reflect what ha...

She.

What I should like the Minister to do when she responds to the debate is give the Committee a com...

I am slightly confused by the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks, given what we have heard from many ...

Order. I hope the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) will not stray too far...

Indeed so, Sir Edward.

As a former member of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Wor...

Is that not exactly what the Government intend, so that, apart from causing financial difficultie...

I think my hon. Friend is right, but our problem is that we are having to intuit the intention be...

My right hon. Friend talked about legal action being taken against trade unions. The other proble...

My hon. Friend has more experience in this area than I have, and he is right to point that out, a...

I will restrict my remarks to clause 36 and to supporting our amendments. As we have heard over t...

My hon. Friend asks, “Why the hurry?” Does he agree that it is because the Government hope to get...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This Bill and clause 36 have come under sustained criticism f...

In some cases where employers are not the best employers, these provisions will leave trade union...

My hon. Friend is right; that would be a consequence of this Bill. In the past, unscrupulous empl...

I have made this point previously, but I want to make it again in the context of what my hon. Fri...

My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent point on the privacy issue. It seems that those on the Gove...

My hon. Friend is making an incredibly compelling speech about the deficiencies of clause 36 and ...

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend.

Recent revelations about blacklisting and everythin...

I think we misinterpreted the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), because what he said was ...

Does my hon. Friend agree that this part of the Bill is unnecessary legislation and that it is ju...

That is exactly what it is. I am speaking on the clause standing part, as well as to the amendmen...

My hon. Friend is making another compelling speech. He mentions organisations such as the Church,...

I fear when Governments start seeking to regulate civil society generally. That is what the claus...

First, let me say what a compelling speech my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Jo...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that many trade union members, for whatever reason, do not wis...

That is a very good point. We have all sorts of debates in this place on blacklisting recently; i...

I congratulate my hon. Friend on how he is presenting his case. He is correct that unions put a h...

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. There is also the situation involving payroll companies. ...

My hon. Friend makes a crucial point about the difficulty of communicating with trade union membe...

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Perhaps the Minister will tell us whether any other section of...

Given the regulation on trade unions’ membership records that already exists, does my hon. Friend...

I could not agree more—my hon. Friend puts it far better than I could .

I speak as someone who, like many Conservatives, believes in trade unions’ right to use their eco...

Yes, I am. I am interested to hear that the hon. Gentleman believes in the collective strength of...

While I support trade unions’ use of legitimate economic power, taking the step of using that ser...

Of course I agree, but there has always been a legal framework for taking industrial action. The ...

Order. The hon. Gentleman has been very well behaved so far and has stayed entirely in order, but...

I am told that the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) regularly leads people astray—[ Inter...

I declare an interest as a member of the GMB union, which has funded me in the past, and as secre...

My hon. Friend is setting out what I think is the correct approach to dealing with trade union ma...

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I am trying to be polite to the Government. I must ...

The hon. Gentleman is giving a fascinating description of the certification officer’s role in pro...

I always support my leader.

Order. Members cannot just make something up and say that it should be in the clause; they must r...

I hope that I took it in good part, Sir Edward.

The decision on the legislation that was to...

Yes, you do.

I try not to.

Increasingly you do.

My point is that if people see a weakened trade union movement, they will take matters into their...

Order. The hon. Gentleman should leave the subject of Sellafield and come back to clause 36, plea...

Two hundred trade unionists turned up to lobby us at the meeting we attended. The point I was try...

My hon. Friend’s speech is most interesting. It is incredibly important to put these issues into ...

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the discussions we had in 1997, the aim was to take indust...

There have been some fantastic contributions to this very important debate on part 3 of the Bill....

I congratulate my hon. Friend on what he has said so far. Is he aware that Unison commissioned Mi...

I am fully aware of all the legal advice—it has been received not just by Unison but by other org...

Is it a surprise that this debate happens to coincide with the week of the TUC conference?

Unfortunately, I have been unable to attend the TUC conference for a number of reasons. Of course...

My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. He is right to point out that clause 36 is n...

I fully agree with my hon. Friend. We have been in this debate for a number of hours and, despite...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so generous with his time. I agree with everything that...

It would be helpful if the Minister explained who has been consulted in this process—a lot of peo...

Order. The hon. Gentleman should already be on the Bill.

4 pm

I accept that I have again been led astray, Sir Edward. Perhaps I should have said that I am gett...

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his speech. He will be aware that a former leader of the Labour ...

It is amazing. The Government are looking to cut red tape on industrial relations, health and saf...

Is it not true that the certification officer oversees compliance with the 1992 Act to ensure tha...

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. That is the point I hope I have established and I will conti...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way to Back Benchers. His point is crucial to the deci...

Although the trade unions were not very receptive to the legislation initially, they accepted the...

Is my hon. Friend award that the TUC briefing says that it has made freedom of information reques...

That is an important point. I have been in front of the certification officer on numerous occasio...

On the onerous duty placed on the certification officer by clause 36 as currently drafted, propos...

I personally cannot do that—if I had drafted these wretched regulations, I might be in a position...

My hon. Friend will know that over the years, under Governments of both political complexions, th...

Of course that should be the case, but I am not sure that the Opposition should ask the coalition...

My hon. Friend is making a compelling case for why this dreadful legislation should not make it t...

Speaking from vast experience, it is always in a trade union’s interest to maintain the best poss...

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Sheridan.

I intend to focus on clause 36 stand...

I was just speculating on when the hon. Gentleman would actually refer to clause 36, given the ab...

The Chair will decide what is in order.

That is par for the course in this debate, Mr Sheridan. The Government are trying to stifle debat...

My hon. Friend is making a superb speech. If his constituency mailbag is anything like mine, he w...

Absolutely none; not one.

We heard earlier from our learned friend the Chairman of the Poli...

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to tell us how many unions have approached him with concerns about...

No trade union has approached me about the certification officer, but, as my hon. Friend the Memb...

Would the hon. Gentleman care to comment on the inconsistency in the Government’s approach? A Bil...

As the hon. Lady will know, I serve on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and I have been inv...

Do the current regulations governing the trade union movement, which were so eloquently set out b...

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, as there is absolutely no doubt about what he says....

Or resign.

He could resign—that is a good idea.

I am clear that the reason why the Government will not...

We have had a wide-ranging debate this afternoon on this string of amendments. At some points it ...

Will the Minister give way?

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, we are almost four hours into the debate and I want to mak...

Labour Members have made the point that the certification officer ensures that trade unions keep ...

I certainly recognise that trade unions play an important part in our national life, both in the ...

I am listening carefully as the Minister sets out her stall and I noted that she agreed with my h...

It is has been interesting that various hon. Members have highlighted some of the difficulties fa...

Will the Minister give way?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands why I wish to finish my response to the hon. Member fo...

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, but in what I can describe only as her rather waffl...

If that is how the hon. Gentleman describes my answer to his hon. Friend, I would be interested t...

rose —

rose —

I shall give way to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and then to the hon...

The Minister said that unions have some influence and she is trying to give assurance. Does she a...

The hon. Lady raises a point that others have raised, which I will come to in my remarks about th...

I am grateful to the Minister for putting me in my right place in North Down. She has given the i...

The hon. Lady raises a reasonable point. We carried out a targeted consultation exercise over the...

rose —

I will give way again to the hon. Lady, then I shall make progress as there are other groups of a...

I am enormously grateful to the Minister for taking a second intervention from me. May I make a p...

I have some sympathy with the point that the hon. Lady makes. Like her, I am not a lawyer—[Interr...

rose —

I said that I would make progress. I shall do that and then take some more interventions.

I...

Everything the Minister has mentioned so far could be done within the existing system and without...

I hope that I can give the hon. Gentleman some reassurance. It is not a question of every single ...

I think that most of us are still mystified about the objectives of the clause, so I will put one...

The certificate that will have been issued, and which will be available for any member of the pub...

rose —

I will make some progress, because many points were raised in the debate, but I will give way sho...

Does the hon. Lady not accept that there is a suspicion that the issue is about industrial action...

The short answer is no. The longer one is that the case law is clear. As has been outlined in the...

rose—

I want to make progress, because we want to scrutinise other elements of the Bill today.

My...

Thank you, Mr Sheridan, for chairing this debate.

I thank all hon. Members who have spoken—...

I beg to move amendment 107, page 39, line 7, at end add—

‘, and

(c) to have a duty o...

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 108, page 39, line 16, ...

I know you thoroughly enjoyed the debate on the previous group of amendments, Mr Sheridan, so it ...

Is it not the case that my hon. Friend’s amendment is necessary to make it clear in the Bill that...

That is exactly the purpose of all our amendments to clause 37: to ensure that any independent pe...

Does my hon. Friend agree that if our amendments dealing with this issue are not accepted, there ...

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly good point. One of the key aspects of the Trade Union and Labo...

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being so generous in giving way. Is not the nub of the issue—...

It absolutely would. Given the evidence of blacklisting that has emerged over the past few years,...

The inherent reason for legislation and regulation of trade unions seems to be that some of those...

My hon. Friend makes an interesting observation. No, the RAC would not be covered by part 3, whic...

rose—

Order. I remind the Committee that we must stick to debating clause 37; we seem to be wandering a...

Thank you, Mr Sheridan. I shall certainly try not to wander off topic.

It is worth ponderin...

Does my hon. Friend accept that if there is a breach of the European convention, it would be open...

That is essentially what Liberty is pointing out in its contribution, which I think is a valid an...

Given the seriousness of the duty that is imposed on assurers, I wonder what penalty might be inc...

Under the Bill as it stands, the assurer can be removed, but owing to the weakness of the provisi...

Does not the scenario that my hon. Friend is setting out throw yet another potential problem into...

That is a legitimate point. I do not know whether my hon. Friend was present during the last deba...

One wonders what thought is driving the Government to ask trade unions to do what the Bill requir...

That is a good comparison to make, because I would bet that every one of the 166 trade unions reg...

Like most people in the Chamber, I am unaware of why we need assurers. The certification officer,...

Is my hon. Friend as perplexed as I am that this is the second clause to contain a solution looki...

Of course it is. My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

What qualifications will the assurers—...

My hon. Friend is asking about the requirements of the job specification and person specification...

Although I fully agree with my hon. Friend, there are probably better ways of doing it. I fear th...

In my trade union, the rulebook can be changed only by a change of rule motion to congress, and a...

It is up to a trade union and its membership to decide what they want in that union’s rules. It s...

As always, my hon. Friend is making a fantastic contribution, but if he reads several of the qual...

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, but it makes us ask why on earth the clauses are being p...

My hon. Friend is right that we need more clarity from the Minister about the role of the assurer...

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct, and although we have only started to scratch the surface, t...

I am following my hon. Friend’s speech with interest. I share his puzzlement, but there might be ...

I understand my hon. Friend’s point, although he puts it somewhat differently than I would.