Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Monday, 6 June 2011, in the House of Lords.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Lords committee stage fourth day. Clause 9 agreed to as amended. Clauses 10 to 73 agreed. Schedules 5 to 9 agreed.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

728 c11-89, c106-26

Session

2010-12

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 62-EN also published.
Friday, 1 April 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Human Rights Joint Select Committee eleventh report with formal minutes and evidence.
Tuesday, 3 May 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons

Constitution Select Committee (HL) fourteenth report on Part 1 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill.
Wednesday, 4 May 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Select Committee (HL). Thirteenth report on: Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill 2010-12; Wreck Removal Convention Bill 2010-12. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 4 May 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Soley | 728 c84-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am afraid I shall have to speak, if only briefly, because I regard this as one of the mo...

Lord Beecham | 728 c84 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall not detain the Committee for too long. I thought we were breaking at eight o’clock...

Show all contributions (156)

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, have amendments in this large group—I am afraid that it is another nine. Like othe...

Lord Condon | 728 c82 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments described by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and the noble Lord, Lord Harri...

Baroness Browning | 728 c86 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful and I shall be happy to write to noble Lords. This is a large group of amend...

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara | 728 c85-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, earlier in the discussion today my noble friend Lord Hunt mentioned that this was a bad Bi...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, has tabled a series of important amendments, so she should...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c80-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise to those Members of the House who are keen to move on to the other debate, but...

Baroness Doocey | 728 c82 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 170, 171, 181, 182, 227 and 228 and I thank my noble friend Lo...

Baroness Henig | 728 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) I was going on to say that I remain absolutely convinced that political balance is essential. The po...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) Given that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, has been telling us how, as a substitute for in...

Baroness Henig | 728 c74-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to a number of amendments. I will try to be as brief as I can be in view of the time, ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c74 (Link to this contribution) 123AB: Clause 28, page 21, line 6, leave out subsection (5) and insert— ““(5) A police and crime pan...

Lord Beecham | 728 c70 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may draw the Minister's attention to Part 2 of Schedule 6. Paragraph 4(1) talks about the ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c69-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise for the inconvenience caused to the House. I will address the amendments that ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c72 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for her very lengthy response. I also thank everyone who took part in...

Baroness Browning | 728 c70-2 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right: the co-option is limited to two. However, the intention is to get the balan...

Baroness Browning | 728 c69 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the House and hope that noble Lords will forgive a new girl for getting her homework ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c69 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that the Committee adjourn for five minutes. Sitting suspended.

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c69 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was trying to attract the attention of other Members on the Front Bench. I think that th...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c68 (Link to this contribution) I realise that I have not spoken in this debate yet, but following the point raised by the noble Lor...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c67-8 (Link to this contribution) I certainly know why that is. We start from the basis that London is the greatest city in the world ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c67 (Link to this contribution) The panel for the Mayor of London will be subject to an existing mechanism for providing a committee...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c67 (Link to this contribution) If it is such a good principle for every local authority outside London to be represented, would the...

Baroness Browning | 728 c67 (Link to this contribution) No, I take that point, but I think it goes even further than that. That is why it is so important th...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c67 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will feel able to discuss with her noble friend Lord Howard not only the ge...

Baroness Browning | 728 c66-7 (Link to this contribution) I can assure the noble Lord that overturning Clause 1 has not gone unnoticed by others who have an i...

Baroness Henig | 728 c51 (Link to this contribution) It seems that the Government are tying themselves more and more into knots. One reason for that is t...

Baroness Henig | 728 c52-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 123D, 124A, 135A, 135B, 137A, 137B and 138A to 138F in th...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c56 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the proposals of the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, in this group of amendments to ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) This is precisely the question of how the process of scrutiny holds people to account. Public meetin...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c50 (Link to this contribution) I am trying hard to think of a similar set of circumstances in which someone who is elected and hold...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Baroness will be kind enough to name names outside the Chamber afterwards. I accep...

Lord Beecham | 728 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) I have four amendments in this group. The first, Amendment 123B, is very straightforward. It would s...

Lord Shipley | 728 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to comment on the amendments in this group standing in the names of my noble friend...

Lord Beecham | 728 c59 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord will bear in mind that there may be elected mayors in one authority in a metr...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c65 (Link to this contribution) Where I am confused is that I am not sure what duties the panels have in relation to cross-border is...

Baroness Browning | 728 c65 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right to correct me. I was thinking in terms of the different structures and the w...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c64 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak as someone who sat for many hours on the Front Bench that the Minister now occupie...

Baroness Browning | 728 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be appropriate if I begin with Wales, as we have finished with Wales at the end of ...

Baroness Randerson | 728 c61-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I should like specifically to address the amendments that refer to Wales, including Amendm...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c62-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to my Amendments 126BA and 127A, but first I shall comment on the debate so far. One t...

Lord Shipley | 728 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his intervention, because that is absolutely true. Insuffi...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that our discussion has highlighted to the Minister why the composition of these pa...

Lord Soley | 728 c65-6 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the noble Baroness is trying on this but one problem is that she is not able to say t...

Baroness Browning | 728 c66 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for that. Although I am a new Member of your Lordships’...

Lord Soley | 728 c66 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I understand that. The change made at the beginning of the passage of the Bill in this House wa...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c39 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in looking at the response that the Mini...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c39-40 (Link to this contribution) I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, for that immensely helpful intervention; I ...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c40 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister, who has just spoken on the issue of loosening powers to local level, will ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) I deeply regret having to tell the noble Baroness that I shall not be speaking on the Localism Bill....

Lord Beecham | 728 c41 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister indicate whether he thinks it useful, in terms of informing the public, for the pu...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c41-2 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord wishes to tempt me down the road back to what his noble colleague, the noble ...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c42 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend’s time on his allotment was well spent and he should not fr...

Baroness Hayman | 728 c43 (Link to this contribution) We now move to what is on the Marshalled List as Amendment 101A. It has been misnumbered and should ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c43 (Link to this contribution) 101A: Clause 18, page 14, line 18, leave out paragraph (a)

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c45-6 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. If many of us in the Committ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am indebted to my noble friend Lady Henig for her amendments. As she said, some are cons...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also speak to Amendment 211ZB on the basis that the principle that the Government should...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hope that the Minister on this occasion—and I mean no offence to the noble Baroness, Lad...

Lord Shipley | 728 c47 (Link to this contribution) I can speak briefly on Amendments 234T onwards because they are all broadly the same. They are conse...

Lord Condon | 728 c47 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support Amendment 211ZB proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I agree entirely with him...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c49 (Link to this contribution) We are not putting all our eggs into that basket. Let us continue with some of those discussions. I ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c49 (Link to this contribution) Of course, I can see that if you are holding someone to account, clearly you are part of holding a p...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c49 (Link to this contribution) It is true that I cannot attend, but I understood that the invitation was to give us the memorandum ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c33-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I sense that I have been tempted to enter into something of a Dutch auction. Many figures ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c32-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two amendments in this group: Amendments 118A and 122AA. I also support the thrust ...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am certainly not setting out to beat the noble Baroness down, up, across the Chamber or ...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c27-8 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to other amendments in the group and refer to their numbering as I come to them. In t...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c26 (Link to this contribution) 91: Clause 14, page 12, line 30, at end insert— ““(c) the local authorities in the area (including p...

Lord Beecham | 728 c30-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we heard at Question Time that the House gave considerable support to an issue about chequ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c28-30 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 116ZA and, briefly, Amendment 122A. We have heard a lot about checks and ...

Lord Shipley | 728 c25 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for his response. I had not realised that th...

Baroness Henig | 728 c25-6 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that the Government were anxious that everything should be seen to be thought thro...

Baroness Henig | 728 c25 (Link to this contribution) 83ZZA: Clause 10, page 10, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) A local policing body is to appoint a member...

Lord Rosser | 728 c38-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments in this group deal with the powers of the Secretary of State. I tabled Amen...

Lord Blencathra | 728 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) We now make rapid progress because my amendment jumps to Clause 80 but it is in this group for discu...

Lord Beecham | 728 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I break the habit of a brief parliamentary lifetime by suggesting that the Secretary of St...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 139, 150 and 226, and shall perhaps mention the other amendments in...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c35 (Link to this contribution) 93: Clause 14, page 13, line 12, leave out subsection (6)

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c35 (Link to this contribution) A veto on a veto. This debate has dealt with seeking information about the budget. We have previous...

Baroness Browning | 728 c35 (Link to this contribution) Sorry.

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c35 (Link to this contribution) No, my Lords, I took that point. The noble Baroness said ““override the veto””; I think she meant ov...

Baroness Browning | 728 c35 (Link to this contribution) I should clarify something, because I do not want in any way to mislead the House. Although of cours...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c24 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am happy to give that assurance. We are all concerned to ensure that the operations of t...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c24 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in taking this point away, will the Minister please have regard to the public perception t...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c24 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we will take this away. However, the principle of the Bill is that the chief constable is ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c23-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way and for the point he has just made. His explanation o...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c25 (Link to this contribution) I apologise. I did not get through all my notes; I was a little distracted at one or two points by f...

Baroness Henig | 728 c24-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I want to address the issue of crime figures being provided at divisional as well as force...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c24 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly not the Government’s intention that they should not appear in public. Incidentally, ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c23 (Link to this contribution) Most of us who have dealt with chief constables will know that chief constables would be unlikely to...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) My thinking was to do with the presence of the chief police officer at particularly major public mee...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c22 (Link to this contribution) Should communication break down, that will become difficult. The Minister is perfectly proper in sug...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c22 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the design of this Bill is that the accountable body that is directly elected will be the ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c22 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister accept that the problem here is that, as his comment suggests, the role of the pol...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c22 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I recognise that throughout the rest of today we will discuss the relationship between the...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c21 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister will take away and consider very carefully the points that have been raised...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c21 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Government will certainly take this matter away and look at it in detail. I go to my n...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c20 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister in full flow. However, he has responded in terms of the positio...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c20 (Link to this contribution) It is very much the Government's proposal that police and crime commissioners should work in partner...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my recollection from when I was chair of the Metropolitan Police Authority is that we buil...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will it not be the same person?

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) I may be misinformed, but I cannot imagine a community safety partnership that does not have represe...

Lord Beecham | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that what is sought in the amendment is that the police and crime panel should be...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) There is representation. The idea that local authorities should appoint people to the police and cri...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that the Minister has been mesmerised by trying to work through how the amendment of the n...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c19-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is a question about whether police and crime panels, which are constituted from and ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c18 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that set of questions. I spent much of Friday with the local police team in Leeds ...

Lord Rosser | 728 c17 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the purpose of this group of amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c15-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak briefly to the amendments. Although I have not taken up the Committee's time...

Lord Beecham | 728 c15 (Link to this contribution) I shall briefly endorse what my noble friend Lady Henig said and refer to three short amendments in ...

Baroness Henig | 728 c12-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, first I declare an interest as a former chair of a police authority, a former chair of the...

Lord Shipley | 728 c12 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 81 I shall speak also to Amendments 88A and 89A. Essentially, these am...

Lord Shipley | 728 c110-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 193, 195 to 199, 200, 201 and 216. All are pretty brief. Amendm...

Lord Rosser | 728 c108-10 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Deputy Chairman on guiding us through that tour de force. I feel like something o...

Lord Rosser | 728 c108 (Link to this contribution) 190A: Clause 52, page 33, line 9, at end insert ““, and ( ) the person is not serving a prison sente...

Baroness Henig | 728 c89 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister and I apologise to the House. As someone who did not really want to start at th...

Baroness Browning | 728 c87-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. I realise that the House feels under some time pressure at...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c87 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I suggest that the Minister looks at a case in Lancashire, where the father of somebody ac...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c87 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to hold up noble Lords who wish to speak in the debate that follows, but my example was n...

Baroness Browning | 728 c87 (Link to this contribution) I will have to check that out for the noble Baroness, and write to her on that. It looks as though t...

Baroness Henig | 728 c86 (Link to this contribution) Would that be true of local authority people as well?

Lord Campbell-Savours | 728 c111-2 (Link to this contribution) I intervene briefly on this issue of voting systems to register a counter-case with the Government, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c125 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. I do not wish to detain the Committee. Three p...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 728 c125-6 (Link to this contribution) Before we conclude this interesting debate, I thought I might add a few words. The first thing that ...

Baroness Hamwee | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot resist suggesting that it may be that the Government want the commissioners to be...

Baroness Browning | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am in awe of the multitasking skills of your Lordships’ House. I do not know when your L...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) My Lords—

Baroness Browning | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) I think that this is where I was stopped last time—I do hope to get beyond this.

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) I beg my noble friend’s pardon but will she confirm that, if an MP decides that he or she wants to s...

Baroness Browning | 728 c123 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, they would have to stand down at the point at which they put themselves forward for selec...

Lord Beecham | 728 c123-4 (Link to this contribution) Some of us are anxious that matters should not proceed for very much longer but for just a little lo...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c124 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister also confirm that in the register of interests for your Lordships’ House...

Baroness Browning | 728 c124-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will try to take some of the shock out of the noble Baroness’s reaction to this and expl...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 728 c112-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak to Amendment 234ZZF in this group, which relates to the provisions about transfer ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c113-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fear that in the course of this Committee I have not always been entirely helpful to the...

Lord Rosser | 728 c117-9 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response and for the information she was able to give the Committee on...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 728 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I give notice of my intention to oppose the Question that the clause stand part of the Bil...

Baroness Henig | 728 c115 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 200A in this group, concerned with the Bill's proposal to grant the Secre...

Baroness Browning | 728 c116-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 55 allows a police area returning officer and local returning officers for election...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 728 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister resumes her flow, I would like to follow on from the point that my noble friend ...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c122 (Link to this contribution) Would my noble friend allow me to point out to him that the contributions he made were always valuab...

Baroness Browning | 728 c121 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to set out our thinking on this matter. However,...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c121 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that membership of this House, as opposed to the House of Commons, is part-time ...

Baroness Browning | 728 c68-9 (Link to this contribution) I promise my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, that I will look at that, but I cannot ma...

Baroness Henig | 728 c52 (Link to this contribution) 122AB: Clause 28, page 20, line 25, leave out subsection (1) and insert— ““( ) Every police and crim...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c49 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, feels that the Government are not willing ...

Lord Soley | 728 c24 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have been trying to make sense of this exchange, and I think that my noble friend has be...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister has slightly confused me—or rather, I have become confused, b...

Lord Shipley | 728 c11 (Link to this contribution) 81: Clause 9, page 9, line 33, at end insert — ““( ) Before making a crime and disorder reduction gr...

Lord Lyell | 728 c122 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before my noble friend replies, will she allow me 30 seconds of her valuable time? I am no...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 728 c85 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I know the Minister will seek to answer all the points. I have been listening intensely, a...

Baroness Henig | 728 c43-5 (Link to this contribution) In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments 101B and 101C, Amendments 234ZZA to 234ZZ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c21 (Link to this contribution) We are well aware of the very central role of CSPs in managing the problems of crime reduction at lo...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 728 c19 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that police authorities traditionally have had this role. We are proposing a new model. ...

Subjects

Complaints

Devolved matters

Accountability

Discipline

Crime

Elections

House of Lords

Eligibility

Disqualification

Greater London

Local government

Police

Powers

Membership

Public appointments

Prisoners

Public consultation

Peers

Part-time employment

Political impartiality

Standards

Voting methods

Reform

Victims

Wales

London Assembly

Police and crime commissioners

Police and crime panels

Legislation

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill 2010-12

Link

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