UK Parliament / Open data

Employment Bill [HL]

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 4 February 2008, in the House of Lords.
Employment Bill (HL). Lords Committee stage first day. Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. New clause under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
698 c437-92GC, (corrigendum) 1045-6 
Session
2007-08
Department
Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Employment Bill (HL). (Explanatory Notes HL Bill 13-EN published).
Thursday, 6 December 2007
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c1046 (Link to this contribution) What the noble Baroness has just said makes me realise that with our customary moderation we have go...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) This is a very interesting amendment and in many ways I am very much for it. However, I am concerned...

Show all contributions (155)
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c464GC (Link to this contribution) To clarify my question, I am not clear about the origin of this code of practice—whether it is a cod...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c466GC (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord that the answer is yes.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c438GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure that I can associate everyone on these Benches with my thanks to my noble friend Lord Bach...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c486GC (Link to this contribution) I understand what my noble friend says, but we have already established that consent will include de...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c492GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until Monday 25 February at 3.30 pm.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c492GC (Link to this contribution) I am not persuaded. I asked the noble Lord, Lord Henley, a question with due consideration. To act i...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for her comment which is ab...
Lord Bach | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) I am so sorry, my noble friend misunderstood me. I asked to consider it.
Lord Henley | 698 c478GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may also throw in a couple of questions that are directed at the movers of this amendment....
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 698 c459GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate all noble Lords who have added their names to the amendment. This is a very big subje...
Lord Henley | 698 c458GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord on the timely nature of his amendment, which deals with surveillance a...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c453GC (Link to this contribution) Before this hare runs any further, has the noble Lord noticed that the amendment would bring into fo...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c462-3GC (Link to this contribution) I repeat how grateful I am to everyone who has spoken on this amendment. There are a number of objec...
Lord Bach | 698 c461GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the Minister has quite finished.
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c461-2GC (Link to this contribution) It is me who should apologise; I did not know that I should have quickly got to my feet again. The ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c461GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to everyone who has spoken on the amendment, including the Minister—
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c463-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 7: 7: Clause 3, page 2, line 27, after ““issued”” insert ““by ACAS”” The nobl...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 698 c467-8GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, has misunderstood my point. I was asking for a wider brief on how t...
Lord Henley | 698 c466GC (Link to this contribution) Further amendment will take place before consultation? Is the noble Lord saying that ACAS will furth...
Lord Henley | 698 c466-7GC (Link to this contribution) Good. I am still somewhat worried because we will not get a chance to see the final version before t...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 698 c467GC (Link to this contribution) We have a tremendous opportunity to influence the content of the code if we are now being presented ...
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 698 c437GC (Link to this contribution) Good afternoon. Before we begin, if there is a Division in the Chamber—which there may well be—the C...
Lord Henley | 698 c438GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, we will obviously be discussing ACAS later on when we come to the code of practice. At this...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 698 c438GC (Link to this contribution) I totally accept that it is a basic requirement and, as such, it is well understood. This is not the...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c439-40GC (Link to this contribution) First, I assure my noble friend Lord Hoyle that I am delighted to be here today to carry on the work...
Lord Henley | 698 c445GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Razzall—which sometimes makes me wonder—that it is a joy to be abl...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c450-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful for what the Minister has said. My noble friend has given reassurance about the G...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c447-8GC (Link to this contribution) I listened with great interest to the introduction of this amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Wedderb...
Lord Hoyle | 698 c448-9GC (Link to this contribution) In speaking to the amendment tabled in the names of my noble friends and myself, I am pleased at the...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 698 c452-3GC (Link to this contribution) Is the concept that this code should have an affirmative resolution in both Houses? It is going to b...
Lord Bach | 698 c486-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend again, but he raises an important point. As I understand it,...
Lord Henley | 698 c489GC (Link to this contribution) I genuinely think that we have made good progress, although the noble Lord might say that we have no...
Lord Razzall | 698 c489GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly support the noble Lord, Lord Henley. If the Government side were to study the proposers ...
Lord Bach | 698 c488GC (Link to this contribution) I think that my response to my noble friend’s amendment will please him. Whether it does please him ...
Lord Henley | 698 c491GC (Link to this contribution) I agree that even with the consent of the parties it seems to make nonsense of the whole idea of med...
Lord Bach | 698 c491-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue. The amendment seeks to prevent a tribunal m...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend does not wish to give way, he has every right not to do so. I simply wanted to as...
Lord Bach | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry; I thought my noble friend was asking me to spell it out, if it is what I meant. I will ...
Lord Borrie | 698 c482GC (Link to this contribution) May I put a question to the noble Lord, Lord Bach? After his explanation and after hearing my noble ...
Lord Bach | 698 c482-3GC (Link to this contribution) I think noble Lords have a point about the wording, and I would like to take that back. I have tried...
Lord Bach | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Turner of Camden for moving her amendment. I could not help bu...
Lord Henley | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) They were in no way trying to make money. We are talking about the others.
Lord Colwyn | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) I ask that Members of the Committee only speak from a standing position. It makes it extremely diffi...
Lord Razzall | 698 c474GC (Link to this contribution) That is a fair point. When an employment Bill comes forward, people take the opportunity to get into...
Lord Cotter | 698 c475GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his courteous response. As my noble friend Lord Razzall said, we are taking...
Lord Bach | 698 c476-7GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee can say that we are genuinely grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Razzall and Lord Cotte...
Lord Henley | 698 c476GC (Link to this contribution) Many years ago, in 1990 or 1991, a statutory sick pay Bill that went through this House. The noble B...
Lord Razzall | 698 c477GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I appreciate that the regulations that he referred t...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that the noble Baroness is about to withdraw the amendment and I wanted to say somethin...
Lord Bach | 698 c471-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, for raising this issue. As I said when discussing Clau...
Lord Henley | 698 c471GC (Link to this contribution) I am all for the general idea behind this Liberal amendment, which is that one should go easy on tim...
Lord Hoyle | 698 c459GC (Link to this contribution) I rise only to say that I am so pleased at the support being given by everyone who has spoken in rel...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c458-9GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. We are becoming increasingly used to being monitored and surveyed. At stati...
Lord Henley | 698 c453GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord says, it brings into force an amended Section 30. The point I was making is that t...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c462GC (Link to this contribution) I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, that from the Government’s point of view there is ...
Lord Hunt of Wirral | 698 c462GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister concludes, I have been listening with great interest. He has not really dealt wi...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 698 c461GC (Link to this contribution) Briefly, my noble friend is right. The amendment is wider; it goes to human rights and dignity. The ...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c465GC (Link to this contribution) The Government consider it important that employers and employees be encouraged to act appropriately...
Lord Henley | 698 c464GC (Link to this contribution) I shall refer to ““the”” code; that is, the one that has been referred to earlier. I want to thank t...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c464GC (Link to this contribution) That sounds very simple, but this clause refers to ““a Code of Practice””. I would appreciate clarif...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c467GC (Link to this contribution) I asked the Government to do all they could, and they have. They have published a draft code which l...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c437GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““ACAS: role in negoti...
Lord Hoyle | 698 c438-9GC (Link to this contribution) In order to not have to do it every time I get up, I declare a previous interest as president of one...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c440-1GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response, and I thank my noble friends who participated in this debate...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 698 c444GC (Link to this contribution) With respect, we got a bit lost. We are wandering in a jungle, talking about constitution and framew...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c445-6GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment, which is in my name and that of my noble friends. A number of speakers have...
Lord Borrie | 698 c446-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may intervene between the speeches of those who have tabled the amendment. I have not put ...
Lord Bach | 698 c449-50GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Committee for this important and interesting debate, particularly my noble friend Lord W...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c453GC (Link to this contribution) I take that to be a question while I was in a semi-recumbent position. This is a suggestion that wha...
Lord Henley | 698 c453GC (Link to this contribution) I shall make one brief comment that arises from this amendment. We are supposed to be the revising C...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c451-2GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 3: 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, leave out ““to 33”” and insert ““and 31 to 34”...
Lord Bach | 698 c487GC (Link to this contribution) I have misled the Committee—and I apologise particularly to my noble friend for innocently doing so....
Lord Henley | 698 c488GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Deputy Chairman calls Amendment No. 16, may I ask the Government about their plans for ti...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c487-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend, but we are definitely now in Alice Through the Looking-Glass. Thin...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c489-90GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 16: 16: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— ““Mediation where no ...
Lord Bach | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to move on if we can, but if my noble friend wants to—
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c483GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments N...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c484GC (Link to this contribution) had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 14: 14: Clause 4, page 4, line 18, at end ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c485GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment No. 15 because it deals with some points that I made in my original submissions ...
Lord Colwyn | 698 c485GC (Link to this contribution) I have just proposed Amendment No. 15.
Lord Bach | 698 c485-6GC (Link to this contribution) Earlier in Committee we spoke to amendments that looked at the introduction of this fast-track syste...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c486GC (Link to this contribution) I understand what my noble friend has said. The Government do not intend that single-chairman hearin...
Lord Borrie | 698 c485GC (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Baroness is speaking about Amendment No. 14, which has been withdrawn.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c484GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 15: 15: Clause 4, page 4, line 18, at end insert— ““(3AB) No regulations shall...
Lord Bach | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend is right about that, as nearly always. But I am entitled to describe it as an existi...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord realise that a great deal of bad advice was given under that system?
Lord Borrie | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with some points made by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn on proposed new subsection (3AA)(b)...
Lord Bach | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if the noble Lord was not happy with it then, but it became the law in spite of that.
Lord Bach | 698 c480-1GC (Link to this contribution) However, before reaching any final conclusion on that point, I turn to Amendment No. 12, which would...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) ““Worthy of further consideration””. Well, that is something.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c482GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to comment on deemed consent, which can be a very dangerous provision. I can recall man...
Lord Cotter | 698 c472-3GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 9: 9: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— ““Incapacity in relatio...
Lord Henley | 698 c473GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord expand? I do not understand what he is trying to do. Surely an employer would hav...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c473GC (Link to this contribution) Does this cover people who develop the incapacity after they have ceased the employment? In my tribu...
Lord Bach | 698 c474-5GC (Link to this contribution) The Government understand the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, regarding the difficulties fac...
Lord Henley | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) The body to which I was referring, which I get the impression still exists, was very much offering i...
Lord Henley | 698 c478GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, says that it does, but does so in a manner that implies it has caused h...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c468GC (Link to this contribution) I am learning by the day. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, raises a valid point. The next Grand ...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c469GC (Link to this contribution) That is an excellent point. To deal with another point before closing, my noble friend is absolutel...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c468-9GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all those who contributed to the debate. Of course, all of us are grateful to the Minister f...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c469-70GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I thank everyone who participated in the debate, but I return to the point that I made earlie...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I can deal with that straightaway. The Government are not dealing with the consultation. ACAS will d...
Lord Cotter | 698 c471GC (Link to this contribution) I agree with the noble Lord that there is a slight area of confusion. As my noble friend Lord Razzal...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c459-60GC (Link to this contribution) I come to the amendment as very much a new boy and as someone who is learning every day. I say what ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c456-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 6: 6: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— ““Procedure on disputes...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c455-6GC (Link to this contribution) There are two points as I understand them. First, I should not have included the repeal of Section 3...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c454-5GC (Link to this contribution) First, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that we practise joined-up government. I ensure that di...
Lord Henley | 698 c460-1GC (Link to this contribution) I am not necessarily asking for another document of that sort. In the light of the concerns that hav...
Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 698 c465GC (Link to this contribution) Order. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. [The Sitting was suspended for a Division in the ...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c465GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that we all have the document. I assure the Committee that it will be the subject of ...
Lord Henley | 698 c465-6GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister enlighten us on that point? He said that the code has now gone out for consultatio...
Lord Henley | 698 c464GC (Link to this contribution) Obviously I have had time to read it. That is not the problem. As the noble Lord will be aware, one ...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c464GC (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that I do not know what time the 6.25 am from Carlisle got in ...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c466GC (Link to this contribution) I assure the noble Lord, Lord Henley, that Members of the Committee are all looking at the document ...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c439GC (Link to this contribution) I would like to ask a couple of questions. I thought that the remark by the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c441-4GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Employment tribunals...
Lord Razzall | 698 c444-5GC (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to listen to a tour de force on these topics from the noble Lord, Lord Wedde...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c487GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that we are not going from Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland to Through the Looking-Gla...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c488-9GC (Link to this contribution) However much my noble friend offers us crumbs, or the whole loaf, Amendment No. 16 will require quit...
Lord Bach | 698 c489GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think that it is the right time to stop, with the greatest respect. We should deal with the...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c491GC (Link to this contribution) Even with the consent of the parties, it should surely not be proper.
Lord Henley | 698 c491GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as, like my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, who declared this interest on Se...
Lord Bach | 698 c486GC (Link to this contribution) This would have to be with the consent of the parties. If the parties did not consent, there would n...
Baroness Gardner of Parkes | 698 c484-5GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 14 seems to cover part of the point I was making. However, one needs to add something ...
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend refers to the Minster’s existing powers. That power was inserted by the 2002 Act. Ma...
Lord Hoyle | 698 c479GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that. I do not mean the slightest criticism.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton | 698 c481-2GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps this is the fault of the grouping, but I shall refer back to Amendment No. 12, on which the ...
Lord Bach | 698 c480GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 11 would establish a requirement that positive consent to a determination without hear...
Lord Cotter | 698 c473GC (Link to this contribution) It should be done and could be done. I am simply drawing attention to the high need for a risk asses...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 698 c474GC (Link to this contribution) I am a little puzzled about why the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, is moving this specifically related to ...
Lord Razzall | 698 c475-6GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 10: 10: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— ““Statutory sick pay ...
Baroness Turner of Camden | 698 c477-8GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 11: 11: Clause 4, page 4, line 15, after ““consent”” insert ““in writing”” Th...
Lord Hoyle | 698 c478-9GC (Link to this contribution) What has been put forward is trying to be helpful, so I hope that the Minister will accept it, parti...
Lord Jones of Birmingham | 698 c468GC (Link to this contribution) And me. It will not be 24 or 26 February, I promise you that. By that day—it is an excellent idea—I ...
Lord Cotter | 698 c470-1GC (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 8: 8: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause— ““Time for completing d...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 698 c469GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me for delaying her summation for one more minute. If th...
Lord Cotter | 698 c472GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response. He has taken on board our concern to get resolution of these ...
Lord Razzall | 698 c471GC (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment, which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend. It is worth making...
Notes
Due to an error in the production process, two contributions by Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Lord Wedderburn of Charlton were omitted from the Daily Part at c478GC. These contributions should have been printed immediately before the speech of Lord Henley. Correction printed on 5 February 2008 at 698 c1045-6.
Subjects
Disciplinary proceedings
Codes of practice
ACAS
Employment
Industrial relations
Employment Tribunals Service
Industrial disputes
Monitoring
Surveillance
Tribunals
Trade unions
Sick pay
Grievance procedures
Legislation
Employment Bill (HL) 2007-08
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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