Parliamentary search - Fraud Bill [HL]

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

447 c534-83

Session

2005-06

Department

Solicitor General

Legislative stage

Second reading

Procedure

Programme motions

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Fraud Bill (HL). Brought from the Lords. Explanatory Notes Bill 166-EN also published.
Wednesday, 29 March 2006
Bills
House of Commons

Legislative scrutiny : sixth progress report. Human Rights Joint Select Committee fourteenth report with proceedings and appendices.
Monday, 27 February 2006
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Coaker | 447 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his good wishes. There is always a race between the police and the cr...

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown | 447 c582 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Minister on his promotion. Clearly criminals are increasingly using more sophisti...

Show all contributions (94)

Chris Bryant | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) I referred to the issue of the suborning of a police officer. Everyone in the Chamber seemed to be n...

Lord Coaker | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General informs me that he is happy to do that in due course.

David Heath | 447 c581 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister happens to be mentioning advice that will be given, I wonder whether the Solicitor-G...

Lord Coaker | 447 c579-81 (Link to this contribution) This is the first occasion on which I have spoken as a Minister in a Second Reading debate. As I am ...

Lord Garnier | 447 c575-6;447 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) Well, that is J rather than L. They are different letters of the alphabet, and we are making progres...

Charles Walker | 447 c573 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point, and to the Solicitor-General’s credit, he did not talk about ID ...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 447 c573 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend referred to Frank Abagnale, one of the world’s leading experts on fraud. On counterfe...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c575 (Link to this contribution) For the record, it was a Justice briefing.

Lord Garnier | 447 c573-5;447 c573-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that someone such as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) has found ...

Charles Walker | 447 c571-2 (Link to this contribution) I must confess that the hon. Gentleman has foxed me with that intervention. Being a man of limited i...

Charles Walker | 447 c572-3;447 c573 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I hope that my point is not as poor as he thinks and that the...

Chris Bryant | 447 c572;447 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a poor point, but a better point is that many people deliberately buy Sky b...

David Heath | 447 c576;447 c577 (Link to this contribution) Certainly not.

Lord Garnier | 447 c577-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says, ““Certainly not””, from a sedentary position, in case anyone did not hear h...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Our commitment is to tackle crime at every level and as was clear at the last election, to do so, we...

David Leslie Taylor | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman unimpressed, as I am, by the Solicitor-General’s specific contribution in sayi...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) I am not wholly convinced by the Solicitor-General’s arguments on the last point, especially, of cou...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) The City of London police are expert at dealing with fraud, but we have given them more than £1 mill...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c550-1 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General makes a perfectly reasonable point that it all comes down to money and there i...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c551 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, the fraud review led by the Attorney-General will examine some of those issues, particula...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c557 (Link to this contribution) The City of London police are responsible not only for fraud in the City, but more widely for London...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c552 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of straying mildly but not too far away from this issue, if the City of London was allow...

Brian Jenkins | 447 c552-6 (Link to this contribution) I speak in support of the Bill today. It looks to be a good Bill—one that has had a very long gestat...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c545-6;447 c545 (Link to this contribution) If we can repeal the offence, our preference would be to do so, but we want to ensure that we deal w...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c546-8 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Solicitor-General on having secured that rarest of things for a Law Officer—an ou...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c548 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman referred to the Rose Committee. Let me refer him to the letter from Sir Christoph...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c548 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have listened to the consultation. If I had not been listening, I—and, I daresay, my noble F...

Emily Thornberry | 447 c545 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that when people are charged with criminal offences, it is imp...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) Are you going to spend more money?

David Heath | 447 c548-9 (Link to this contribution) It concerns me that arguments for the retention of the common law offence in prosecuting multiple of...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c549-50 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Indeed, one problem, given the plethora of legislation that t...

Nick Hurd | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend finishes, what comfort did he take from the Solicitor-General’s assurances abo...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c550 (Link to this contribution) I took little comfort from the Solicitor-General’s words on that subject.

Brian Jenkins | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Although I should like to agree that it would be appropriate to incorporate a sunset clause, what gu...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567;447 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) I think that I agree with the hon. Gentleman. A period of three years has been mentioned and that is...

Brian Jenkins | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Of course I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman from the Clapham omnibus.

Chris Bryant | 447 c569 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman got A and B the wrong way round?

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c569 (Link to this contribution) No, I have not, or, if I have, so has Justice. Clause 6 deals with the possession of articles. The ...

Lord Garnier | 447 c568 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps a better analogy than the offence of ““going equipped”” is instruments that can be used for ...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman gives a better example, albeit along the same lines as mine. I shall ...

Charles Walker | 447 c569-71;447 c570-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you for calling me to speak last, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am the tail-end Charlie in this import...

Charles Walker | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Nothing upsets the police more than the fact that, when they act...

David Heath | 447 c557-8 (Link to this contribution) I concur, and, as one of the rare breed of council tax payers in the City of London, I am glad that ...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c558 (Link to this contribution) I have looked through my notes for the exact quote from the Law Commission about clause 4, which I s...

David Heath | 447 c558-9 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the Solicitor-General says, but I still do not entirely understand the point. I do not w...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c559 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated earlier, it is not a strict liability offence. It is the responsibility of the prosec...

David Heath | 447 c559-62 (Link to this contribution) That is extremely helpful. It is clearly not on the face of the Bill. I do not think that we can ass...

Jeremy Wright | 447 c562-3 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by declaring an interest as a non-practising barrister? Like every speaker in our debate...

Chris Bryant | 447 c563-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for having missed the speech by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), alth...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c566;447 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to follow the last point, which was interesting, to say the least—a rabbit out of a hat....

Jeremy Hunt | 447 c566-7;447 c567 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fundamental difference between the course of action that the ...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c567 (Link to this contribution) That is self-evident. Surely this place can find time for the presentation of a short Bill, if the p...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) May I make it clear that clause 6 does not go too wide, in my view? It does not introduce a strict l...

Jeremy Wright | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) May I bring the Solicitor-General back to the point made by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Con...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c542-4 (Link to this contribution) Again, the hon. Gentleman seems to suggest that this is a strict liability offence, but it is not. I...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) There is a distinction. Under the present law of going equipped, if a person were out at night with ...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c544-5 (Link to this contribution) The conspiracy to defraud has proved useful to prosecutors in several ways. For example, it can be u...

Nick Hurd | 447 c544 (Link to this contribution) The Bill intends to make fraud law easier to understand. In that spirit, can the Solicitor-General d...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) Let me give a reassurance to conjurors throughout the land that, provided that they are not intendin...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the problem may go further, particularly with regard to clause 7. If one were a membe...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will let me complete my thought, perhaps I will. It is the intention that we s...

Jeremy Wright | 447 c542 (Link to this contribution) Will the Solicitor-General give way?

Lord Garnier | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) How will clause 11 create a better set of circumstances than the offence of obtaining pecuniary adva...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) It may. Such corporations could use other provisions, but often the real problem in the area that th...

David Heath | 447 c540 (Link to this contribution) I do not want the Solicitor-General to expand his examples too widely, but would the provision also ...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c539-40 (Link to this contribution) We are responding to the broader consultation that took place and the work done by the Law Commissio...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) As it needs to be shown that there was an intention that an article would be used for any involvemen...

Elfyn Llwyd | 447 c541 (Link to this contribution) Some commentators have referred to the fact that there is an absence of any mens rea element in this...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c540-1 (Link to this contribution) The provisions to which the hon. and learned Gentleman referred had some limitations, which we belie...

Jeremy Wright | 447 c539 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General mentioned that the maximum sentence for the offence would be five years, which...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c539 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly right that some of the developments in the global economy that have so benefited our...

Keith Vaz | 447 c538-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend will know that on 1 June EU Ministers met and agreed a formula for sharing evidence b...

John Bercow | 447 c536 (Link to this contribution) The incidence of credit card fraud, not merely by customers against retailers but often the other wa...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c536 (Link to this contribution) We certainly need to look at the full range of penalties. Crime involving fraud, particularly cheque...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c534-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill will reform the criminal law on fr...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) I understand the thrust of the clause, to which we will obviously have to return in Committee, but i...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) We need to ensure that we have a view about how a relationship is created. It can be created in vari...

Chris Bryant | 447 c537-8;447 c537 (Link to this contribution) Might that include the position of a friend? For instance, if I am selling something to a friend of ...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) The Law Commission cogently set out its views on how this relationship should be formed. In each pro...

David Heath | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make exactly the same point. I am unclear as to why the expression"““he is expected to saf...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the duty may well go beyond a mere fiduciary one; other duties could be encompassed. We c...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that that would arise under this limb of the offence, but it would depend on the circ...

John Bercow | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) I note the characteristically cautious reply that the Solicitor-General gave to the hon. Member for ...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) In fact, my hon. Friend should perhaps look at clause 3 rather than clause 4, because the former cov...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) The nature of the Bill probably means that the detail is the most important aspect, but it is true t...

Mike O'Brien | 447 c538 (Link to this contribution) There is some overlap and I say again that it would depend on the circumstances between the two frie...

Chris Bryant | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is making a case to show how the world of fraud has changed in recent years, but ...

Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 447 c571 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend believe that magistrates take a suitably robust approach to the obnoxious practi...

Lord Coaker | 447 c581-2 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting and important point but it is not one for the law on fraud. The hon. Member ...

Dominic Grieve | 447 c537 (Link to this contribution) The Solicitor-General has used the precise expression ““a fiduciary duty””, which would already prov...

David Heath | 447 c556-7 (Link to this contribution) I join in the general welcome for the Bill and for the way in which the Solicitor-General and the ho...

Subjects

Disclosure of information

Contracts

Abuse

Crime

Conspiracy

Criminal law

Corruption

Common law

Credit cards

Fraud

Jurisdiction