Fraud Bill [Lords]

No, I have not, or, if I have, so has Justice. Clause 6 deals with the possession of articles. The Solicitor-General has gone considerably further today than was the case in the other place, in saying that there would have to be an intention. He very fairly intervened on the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome on the point. I hope that it will be possible to advance this part of the Bill, to make it clearer and safer. Clause 11 deals with obtaining services dishonestly. That new offence is necessary because of the way in which things have moved on since the Theft Acts 1968 and 1978. We are now living in an electronic age and it is important to look with clarity at such offences. We need to consider the words ““dishonest act”” in clause 11(1)(a). Should there be a specific mens rea requirement in regard to a defendant dishonestly obtaining services in breach of subsection 2? That is undoubtedly what the clause intends, but it could be argued that, under the present wording, such an act would be intrinsically dishonest, so there would be no need for a finding that the person was dishonest. A better interpretation would be to insert a mens rea element to avoid any difficulty. The Bill is overdue, and it is welcome. I believe that the House will agree to the Government’s proposals in large part. However, caveats have been added by several hon. Members, and I join them in expressing my discomfort about some of the offences that lie between involving strict liability and being an ordinary form of offence. Obviously, we need to ensure that it is absolutely clear that we are setting up legislation that is designed to catch dishonest people. However, it is not utterly clear in some parts of the Bill that that will be the way that it will work. Despite those few misgivings and caveats, I welcome this important Bill. In relation to a remark made earlier by the hon. Member for Rhondda, it has not been standing room only here today, but the Bill is important to all our clients—[Hon. Members: ““Clients?””] I meant to say ““constituents””. The Bill is important for all our constituents, especially those who might be affected by fraud, but also those who might be tempted to perpetrate an act of fraud. We in this House think that we always legislate sensibly and that we always get things right. I remind hon. Members that there was a mistake in the Theft Act 1968 as a result of some draftsman forgetting to repeal the provision that a person caught stealing a sheep could be hanged. Let me tell you that, in some parts of Wales, that has caused a great deal of difficulty.