Fraud Bill [Lords]

The hon. Gentleman says, ““Certainly not””, from a sedentary position, in case anyone did not hear him. He also made sensible points about case management, and gave his support for the jury system. From my experience of summing up to juries, and of addressing juries as an advocate, they have a collective common sense, by and large, and are exceptionally good at discerning honesty and dishonesty. When considering cases of criminal fraud, one is essentially talking about dishonest behaviour. There is no better way of unravelling all the complicated inter-weavings of a scam and asking whether what was going on was a deliberate piece of dishonesty than to ask a group of 2 people to apply their collective common sense. I will not detain the House now with a dissertation on fraudulent preference, on which the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome touched briefly, but there is a story to be told in that regard, as there is with regard to carousel fraud, which has lately hit the headlines. I am sure that the Government have both those matters fully in mind, and I am sure that he can raise them again in Committee. One point on which the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome lighted on which others did not, and which is worth highlighting now, is that of evidence on self-incrimination in relation to clause 13. I will have to read clause 13 a few more times before I get my head around it completely, but as I understand it, the self-incrimination concerned relates to questions asked in civil proceedings, which might prevent a prosecutor from using the answers to those questions to mount a criminal prosecution. The Solicitor-General, or my hon. Friend the shadow Attorney-General, will no doubt take me into a cooler room and explain things to me gently. I would be interested to hear from the Government, now or subsequently, either orally or in writing, how that clause impacts on what is loosely called the right to silence, or the denial of the right to silence. As the Solicitor-General will know, prosecutors are entitled in certain circumstances, under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, to comment on a refusal to answer questions or to explain a particular course of conduct, at the roadside, on arrest or later while being interviewed by the police—or, indeed, on a refusal to give evidence in a trial. I should like to know for my own purposes what impact clause 13 will have on that aspect of criminal procedure. As I have said, the Minister need not trouble himself to give me an answer this evening, but I should be grateful if a simple written answer could be prepared. My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy Wright) described himself, rather diffidently, as a non-practising barrister, as though he had very little experience of the intricacies of criminal law. On the contrary, he is a highly experienced senior junior at the criminal bar. It is a pity that he has had to give that up for his parliamentary duties from the point of view of the courts in England and Wales, but it is a great benefit to the House. He too expressed support for the jury system. He too sensibly advised us that the Government should not just consider legislation on fraud, but consider ways of making things less complicated. He rightly said that the more complicated the system—he cited the tax credits system—the easier it would be for bad people to cheat. He too raised the issue of the maximum sentence in clause 11, which I think it is sensible to deal with in Committee. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) took a zoological canter through the Bill—if it is possible to take a zoological canter; perhaps not. He talked of phishing, Trojan horses and money mules. Essentially, his point was that fraud is an international crime which can be perpetrated by three separate people from three separate jurisdictions, and which can have an impact on a victim in this jurisdiction. It may well be that international co-operation of one kind or another outside the confines of the Bill is necessary to help reduce fraud. The hon. Gentleman was sceptical about the need to retain the common law conspiracy offence, although I think he properly recognised that it might be necessary to retain it in order to establish the most appropriate way of dealing with phishing, Trojan horses and money mules. No doubt the Government will consider that over the next three years. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy applied his legal experience to the Bill. He seemed less sure than Conservative Members about the need to abolish the common law conspiracy offence—not necessarily for the same reasons as the hon. Member for Rhondda—but I am happy to say that he was wholly with us on jury trial, on the need for tighter definitions, on the need for clarity in relation to mens rea or criminal intent in clauses 6 and 7, and on the wider and more general plea for clarity and certainty in the criminal law. Let me say something about clauses 6 and 7. I understand the concern expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, and understand and support the simple solution that he proposed in relation to clause 7. I may be able to assist the Government in that regard, although no doubt my hon. Friend will explain his ideas better in Committee. Simply removing the word ““or”” from clause 7(1)(a) and substituting the word ““and”” would do away with all the problems that we may face. The Government may ask what constitutes fraud within the confines of the Bill. Fraud is described in clauses 1, 2, 3 and 4. It requires criminal intent. The fraud referred to in clause 7(1)(a) is the fraud described in those earlier clauses. When we combine that with the word ““knowing”” in the same paragraph, we end up with criminal intent. My hon. Friend’s solution is so much neater, simpler and clearer. A stroke of a pen could remove one little word and insert another: end of problem. There is a disjunction between the drafting of clause 7 and the drafting of clause 6, but as my hon. Friend said, what works in clause 7 ought to work in clause 6. If the Committee is to do itself any good—which I am sure it will, given a relatively benign and much welcomed Bill—it should concentrate on those two clauses, while obviously dealing with the difficulties presented by the word ““expected”” and the relationships issue raised in clause 4. That is quite enough from me. I told the Government Whip that I would speak until about 9.30 pm, because I knew that the House was keen to hear from me. I also wanted to ensure that my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Robertson) was given the shortest possible time in which to explain the issues that affected his constituents. Joking apart, however, it is time for me to sit down and shut up—or possibly shut up and sit down.