Fraud Bill [Lords]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Indeed, one problem, given the plethora of legislation that the Government introduce, is the astonishing length of time that it takes to bring into operation much of the legislation that we pass. I do not wish to get diverted down a side road, but I would say to the Solicitor-General that we will try at least to probe the Government in Committee as to how we might best proceed in this regard. I would feel uncomfortable if we were really saying that it was inevitable that such a blunt instrument as common law conspiracy to defraud should continue to be an offence for the foreseeable future. If that turned out to be necessary, we would have failed to legislate properly here. Minds need to be concentrated on that issue. I would like to express my gratitude to the Government, because I had feared that there might be a major difference between us over the role of juries in fraud trials, but that issue has been parked to await other legislation. May I say to the Solicitor-General that the sensible thing to do would be to wait and see how well this legislation works? If it turns out greatly to have simplified the law on fraud, no more powerful an argument could be devised for persuading the Government to drop their idea of getting rid of juries in certain fraud trials in its entirety. I have always taken the view that juries are perfectly capable of understanding fraud trials. Indeed, as I have pointed out to the Solicitor-General, in my experience, the cases that collapsed did so long before the jury had the opportunity to consider the issues. I remain concerned about the proposals on juries in fraud trials that the Government had floated, and that will doubtless be a subject for debate at another time. The Government appear to wish to move speedily towards implementing their proposals to restrict the use of juries in certain fraud trials, but it would be odd if they did so immediately after implementing new legislation that could go far towards reassuring them that fraud trials can be considerably simplified. In interventions on the Solicitor-General, I raised some matters of detail that gave rise for concern. We shall doubtless return to them in Committee, but I want to put them on the record today. Fraud by abuse of position is a concept that most right-thinking people have no difficulty in considering improper. However, the definition in the Bill of the position in which such fraud is committed is woolly. I am worried that we have developed a consistent pattern in recent years of passing legislation whose scope is uncertain in criminal justice terms. People behave reprehensibly at times in ways that other people would consider to be of poor moral standing. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) gave the good example of a friend not revealing to another the true worth of some chattel that he was selling off to a third party—or to the friend himself—when he knew that it was in fact very valuable. However, we should be careful about moving from a position of deeming such activity morally reprehensible to saying that it is in breach of the criminal law. Clause 4 deals with fraud by abuse of position. However, unless we define exactly who is intended to be caught by the provision, quite a wide range of people—including relatives, for example—could fall into that category. I want effective legislation on the statute book and I believe that it is possible to sharpen this measure to make it clear who is intended to be caught by it. If we do not improve clause 4, the danger is that we will end up bringing prosecutions in circumstances in which people are surprised to learn that some special duty lies on them to protect another person from making a loss. I also highlighted the issues surrounding the making or supplying of articles for use in frauds and was delighted to hear the Solicitor-General comment that the provisions were not intended to catch conjurors or members of the magic circle, but I have to say that, looking at the plain text of the statute, such people might well be caught. The use of gadgetry that can potentially be used to defraud in order to entertain is a well-established practice, so I wonder what other safeguards could be provided to ensure sufficient mens rea in clauses 6 and 7 to avoid idiotic prosecutions of individuals who never had any intention of defrauding anyone. We shall look further into the detail of those clauses in Committee, as we will examine further the general issue in clause 2 of what constitutes gain or loss. I do not want to take up more of the House’s time on Second Reading. As I have already told the Solicitor-General, we welcome the Bill.