UK Parliament / Open data

Fraud Bill [Lords]

Proceeding contribution from Lord Coaker (Labour) in the House of Commons on Monday, 12 June 2006. It occurred during Debate on bills on Fraud Bill [HL].
This is the first occasion on which I have spoken as a Minister in a Second Reading debate. As I am not a lawyer, I rise with a slight degree of apprehension, which is why I was grateful to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) for saying that I could write to him about clause 13. I welcome the broad support that has been expressed for the Bill. I thank the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), the hon. and learned Member for Harborough, the hon. Members for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), and others on both sides of the House for responding constructively, while committing themselves to scrutiny in Committee to produce the better Bill that is our common goal. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield outlined three tests that he considered important. It was crucial, he said, to overcome complexity, to help prosecutors to prosecute those who committed the crime of fraud, and to adapt to the changing face of criminality—for example, in the context of new technology. I assure him that the Government agree with him about all those tests and aims. As for repeal of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud, I repeat that having listened to Lord Justice Rose and following various consultations, we decided not to repeal it but to review it after three years. Let me point out to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield that the views expressed in the other place changed during debates on the Bill. The hon. Gentleman said that Lord Lloyd saw no case for retention of the common law conspiracy offence. That may have been his initial view, but on 14 March he said that after speaking to Lord Justice Rose he was ““wobbling down in favour”” of retaining the offence. Even Lord Lloyd, having listened to some of the arguments, decided to change his view. He wobbled, which is enough for me. As has been said, non-jury trials will feature in another Bill and do not form part of this debate, but the points made today have been taken into account. As for clauses 6 and 7 and the mens rea issue, we believe that the requirement for an intention to use the articles in people’s possession will provide a safeguard against idiotic prosecutions. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General made clear, those are not strict-liability offences. Case law has established that the phrase"““for use in the course of…any fraud””" means that the prosecution must prove at least a general intention of committing a fraud. Anyone who has no such intention has nothing to fear from these provisions. Whether they are conjurors or innocent members of the public, safeguards are provided by case law. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Mr. Jenkins) for what I thought was an important and worthwhile contribution to the debate. He made the point that the Bill is only part of the solution. That is absolutely right. He suggested the need, for example, for specialist fraud judges and perhaps for specialist fraud courts. Those are useful proposals and I assure him that we will put them into the fraud review, which will report shortly. My hon. Friend raised a number of issues to do with receiving digital television and no doubt he can argue his points in Committee; I am sure that he looks forward to serving on that. He made the important point, which the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) also made, that fraud is not a victimless crime. My hon. Friend said that there is no definition of dishonesty. Although there is no definition of dishonesty, the established test results from the case of Ghosh. Although that is case law, it is approved by the House of Lords and it has been in use for almost 25 years. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) raised many of the issues that we will need to look at in more detail in Committee. With that assurance, I will not mention all the points that he made. For example, we can discuss in Committee the issue of nationality jurisdiction. We do not think that the same justification for extra-territorial jurisdiction exists as it does for corruption. The corruption of officials overseas is dealt with in several international conventions. That stems from concern about corruption in developing countries and its effect on their stability. In contrast, fraud is a huge issue across the world—domestically as much as internationally. Corruption is also far less common than fraud. The resource implications for ““policing”” UK nationals worldwide for fraud are therefore much larger. The cost would need to be carefully examined before any party committed itself to it. If a UK national commits a fraud in Hong Kong that has no effect in the UK and no part of the fraud was committed in the UK, do we want the SFO to pay to send a team to Hong Kong? A degree of caution is needed with respect to that matter, but, as I say, it is an issue that we can debate in Committee. The hon. Member for Rugby and Kenilworth (Jeremy Wright) was right to draw attention to the need for an appropriate penalty for obtaining services dishonestly. In response to his question about the maximum sentence, I draw his attention to the fact that the existing offence of obtaining services by deception carries a maximum sentence of five years’ imprisonment. The Law Commission examined that issue and saw no reason why the maximum for the new offence should not be the same. The Government’s consultation likewise did not elicit any demand for the creation of a higher maximum sentence. Therefore, the Government concluded on the basis of the Law Commission and the consultations that we undertook that the maximum sentence of five years was appropriate. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) reminded us, as always, of the importance of people. As others have made clear, it is important continually to make that point. Although some people find the issue of fraud dry and not very interesting, it impacts on thousands of people across the country. Therefore, today’s debate is particularly important. My hon. Friend made an important point when he talked about the issue of training for the police. I assure him that the police, particularly the ACPO national fraud working group, are playing a full role in developing the policy in the Bill. They have publicly welcomed the Bill and look forward to its early enactment. The City of London police are using their experience to look at how they can train police forces throughout the country in ensuring that it is as effective as possible. Indeed—this will be of interest to the barristers here—the Crown Prosecution Service is also looking forward to issuing advice to prosecutors to ensure that it is as effective as possible.
Type
Proceeding contribution
Reference
447 c579-81 
Session
2005-06
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
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