Fraud Bill [Lords]

Well, that is J rather than L. They are different letters of the alphabet, and we are making progress. In short, there is a foreseeable potential problem with relationships that can be the subject of abuse, which could then lead to fraud. We must bear in mind the distinction between straightforward dishonest criminal behaviour, which this Bill is designed to catch, and sharp practice, immorality or bad manners, which might be utterly reprehensible as matters of social conduct but which might not fall within the definition of fraud intended by the Government in introducing the Bill. I urge Members who serve on the Committee to invite the Government to think carefully about that. There have been seven contributors to the debate, the last of whom, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne, not only clearly enjoyed speaking in the debate but was good enough to tell us that he enjoyed speaking in it, which is a matter of some congratulation. He said that fraud affects not just Members of Parliament or lawyers but our constituents. It is a real issue. As he correctly said, it is not just dealt with on the Enron scale but can affect people with very little by way of assets or money, for whom the consequences can be disproportionately hard. Those with small savings and little wealth can be hard hit by some very nasty people. Now is not the appropriate time to debate the philosophy of sentencing policy. I have some interesting views, at least to me, about the appropriate sentence for all sorts of crimes, but the Bill makes it clear, depending on the clause that one is looking at, that sentences will be 10 or five years. I am sure that Members who serve on the Committee will have ample opportunity to exercise their minds on that. My hon. Friend makes the perfectly good point that there is a great deal of self-help that can prevent fraud. Those who throw their bank account details, cheque books or other sensitive information into a bin without shredding them have, to some extent, only themselves to blame, even though those who misuse the confidential information contained in those documents in a criminal way can have no excuse simply because they found it in the bin. The hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Jenkins) kindly undertook a gentle canter through the explanatory notes to the Bill, which many of us had perhaps not had the chance to read before he read them out to us. That was a valiant service, and I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench have noted that he was able to provide it, for which I thank him very much. He made some other, independent points in relation to the international nature of fraud. Those need to be grasped, especially, as he correctly pointed out, as so much fraud is conducted over the internet. The internet knows no national boundaries, even though the jurisdiction of our criminal courts is to a large extent confined within the boundaries of England and Wales, which I am sure is a point that the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Gedling (Mr. Coaker), will want to take back to the Home Office with him, along with the explanatory notes. The hon. Member for Somerton and Frome gave a cautious but none the less thoughtful welcome to the Bill. He made some points about the need for a coherent prosecuting and investigatory policy. He invited us to try to manufacture a system with one coherent prosecuting and investigative authority, but he did not go so far as saying that he wanted one amalgamated national police force—