UK Parliament / Open data

Child Poverty Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Thursday, 21 January 2010, in the House of Lords.
Child Poverty Bill. Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to. Schedule 1 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
716 c175-236GC 
Session
2009-10
Department
Department for Work and Pensions
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords Grand Committee
Related items
Child Poverty Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 21 also published. (Lords Minutes).
Thursday, 10 December 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Freud | 716 c178GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Handsworth, made some important points when introducing his...
Baroness Afshar | 716 c192GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for saying that this is about the informal sector, ...

Show all contributions (138)
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c195GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will the Minister clarify that the amount of unpaid benefit is in the region of £6 billion...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. He just said three seconds ago that he supports financial ta...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that perfectly well; I do not understand whether that is what the noble Lord is recomme...
Baroness Afshar | 716 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sorry to intervene but it seems that there will be an equal backlash if attempts by p...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 716 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a great fan of Jonathan Bradshaw and the noble Lord, Lord Freud, has done the Committ...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c234-6GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply and all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I thank t...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c220GC (Link to this contribution) Can I come back to the noble Lord on his point about this being a relative income Bill that should b...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) 19: Schedule 1, page 17, line 6, at end insert "and approved by Parliament"
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) I do not think Amendment 21 is grouped with Amendment 19.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c214-5GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the Minister for that reply and to the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his sympath...
Baroness Afshar | 716 c178GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment because it is surely not the intention of the Bill to make margina...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c185GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister agree that just because a particular outcome is not measurable, it does not make ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected. I was not clear, from what the noble Lord said, as to whether he was talking abou...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c193-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his amendment. Perhaps at the start I might just c...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support for our position. When I was quoting issues arou...
Lord Morris of Handsworth | 716 c187GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister for his well considered and detailed response. No one questions the G...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c187GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord will help the Committee rather more than he has so far been able to do by tel...
Lord Freud | 716 c187-9GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for asking that question. I was about to do that. The Minister ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c189GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a very interesting amendment. I do not think anybody would disagree with the noble...
Lord Freud | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Let me just explain what I mean by "in principle". I am looking to improve them in particular ways—w...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Forgive me; I am obviously being very obtuse about this. Is the noble Lord saying that he accepts th...
Lord Freud | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) It was. I said that, ""we are trying to amend the Bill by the addition of some targets. Measurement ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c195-6GC (Link to this contribution) On that last point, I am sure that the Minister is right about the problems of persuading pensioners...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c202-3GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord is overlooking the fact that the OECD reports have real problems—as he will k...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 716 c200-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again, I am grateful for the creative and innovative approach that the noble Lord, Lord Fr...
Lord Freud | 716 c199-200GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the concern that has generated this amendment is based on how best to help the poor, and p...
Lord Freud | 716 c199GC (Link to this contribution) 11: Clause 6, page 3, line 10, at end insert "including passported benefits and benefits in kind"
Lord Freud | 716 c199GC (Link to this contribution) But it is a huge figure. I end by saying that this amendment is designed to make sure that the autho...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Earl for not having picked up that point. In any event, I would be happy to...
Lord Freud | 716 c206-7GC (Link to this contribution) Let me make this absolutely clear. Some passported benefits are in cash and are counted. The Ministe...
Lord Brabazon of Tara | 716 c207GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee stands adjourned until 4.27 pm.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c209GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is right to remind the Committee that an academic debate about...
Lord Freud | 716 c209GC (Link to this contribution) I always appreciate the noble Baroness’s comments on my amendments. The interesting thing about this...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c212-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for her amendment. I suspect that she has anticip...
Lord Freud | 716 c231GC (Link to this contribution) I assure the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, that we have not put out any feelers for ...
Lord Freud | 716 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to thank the noble Baroness for that clarification. The simple point that I would make...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to hear that. It would seem to be outwith the process if the noble Lord had done so. I ...
Lord Freud | 716 c234GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the points that he has made. He dealt with the rather interesting point tha...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c232-4GC (Link to this contribution) I honestly do not know. I know that it does not fall to me to decide this. There is a serious point ...
Lord Freud | 716 c220GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness. They were reluctant to endorse the use of the word "family". I accept th...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c216GC (Link to this contribution) I certainly will speak to them. I had forgotten that this morning I was telephoned and asked whether...
Lord Freud | 716 c222GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar. I am slightly hesitant because I cannot qui...
Lord Freud | 716 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful indeed to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, for that point. We are coming back to ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I remain completely baffled. What seems to be going on is that part of the time the noble Lord seems...
Lord Freud | 716 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for letting me respond to that. We have had many years of targets and we have...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c221GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord would permit me, we really ought to nail the idea that somehow the Government’s in...
Lord Freud | 716 c228-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Baroness’s amendment and mine are very similar. I am glad that we are generally ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c229GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has talked about cronyism, but the reverse is true. The whole point of the public app...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c227GC (Link to this contribution) It is. There was a mistake on an earlier list; I had asked for it to be grouped with this one, but i...
Lord Freud | 716 c215GC (Link to this contribution) 17: Clause 7, page 3, line 25, after "the" insert "Family and"
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c216GC (Link to this contribution) Before I comment, is the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, intending to speak to his amendments in the g...
Earl of Listowel | 716 c178GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the drive behind these amendments, particularly what the noble Baroness, Lady Wa...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c179-84GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Morris and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for these amend...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c192-3GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to widen the issue too much and so I shall be extremely brief. On the questi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c195GC (Link to this contribution) I cannot confirm that figure off the top of my head. I can certainly get the latest data that we hav...
Lord Freud | 716 c187GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, before I launch into the amendment, I will take the opportunity to pick up on a comment th...
Lord Freud | 716 c187GC (Link to this contribution) 10: Clause 6, page 3, line 10, at end insert "including revenues from the black economy"
Lord Freud | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I support the four financial targets in principle.
Lord Freud | 716 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I want to respond to the noble Lord instantly, because I think he may not have understood the point ...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c201GC (Link to this contribution) I support the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. I think the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is running two argument...
Lord Freud | 716 c202GC (Link to this contribution) Let me take up the noble Baroness’s point. I was actually quoting from the OECD on this. The simple ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c198GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, evasion is a key issue, but avoidance could well involve seeking to convert income to capital, ...
Lord Freud | 716 c198GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, for that intervention. I entirely accept that we cannot do ...
Lord Freud | 716 c206GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for that full answer. He is showing his accountancy background when he thinks...
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 716 c206GC (Link to this contribution) This is a puzzling point. The noble Lord may be saying that things will completely change when these...
Lord Freud | 716 c211GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that clarification. It is entirely appropriate that a matter of such signif...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c211GC (Link to this contribution) 14: Clause 6, page 3, line 18, at end insert "and the costs associated with disability"
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c211-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment would ensure that account is taken of the costs associated with disability,...
Lord Morris of Handsworth | 716 c175GC (Link to this contribution) 9: Clause 6, page 3, line 9, at end insert— "(ba) the circumstances in which a child living in commu...
Lord Freud | 716 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I have just realised that I did not know something that I woul...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c234GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord might be interested to know that there has been a 6.7 per cent fall in the number of ...
Baroness Crawley | 716 c236GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this may be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until 3.30 pm on Monday.
Lord Freud | 716 c220GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the Minister. However, I will stay unrepentant on the point. The hard statutory ta...
Lord Freud | 716 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in his response, the Minister begged the point at least three times that this was a child ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c217-9GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for their amendments and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for he...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c216-7GC (Link to this contribution) We on these Benches entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Freud, when he says that the welfare of...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c223GC (Link to this contribution) 18: Clause 7, page 3, line 39, at end insert— "( ) In formulating its advice, the Commission must co...
Lord Freud | 716 c223GC (Link to this contribution) Maybe we could each withdraw sets of assertions about each other, but for the time being on this par...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c222GC (Link to this contribution) We could spend for ever on this and doubtless we are going to come back to it time and again. Notwit...
Baroness Afshar | 716 c221-2GC (Link to this contribution) I am slightly worried about that statement because evidence shows that since the 1930s the single mo...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) No one is saying that the commission is precluded from consulting with children. It is the particula...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c225-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank those who have spoken in support of these amendments—in particular, the Minister. ...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) I accept that the Government are not precluding the commission from consulting children. Indeed, I h...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 21 in my name, which is grouped with this amendment.
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c228GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is very worrying indeed. I would hate it if the members of the commission were just t...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c216GC (Link to this contribution) Amendments 48 and 77. It might be better if he spoke to them first.
Lord Northbourne | 716 c216GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am a little confused by the introduction to the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c216GC (Link to this contribution) I did not understand that I had an amendment in this group.
Earl of Listowel | 716 c185GC (Link to this contribution) I add to what my noble friend has said and, in doing so, express my gratitude to the Minister for hi...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c185GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for each of those comments—
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 716 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am interested in the approach that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, takes. I encourage him to...
Lord Freud | 716 c197GC (Link to this contribution) I can confirm that. I said that I introduced the fifth financial target as an additional target. It ...
Lord Freud | 716 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Returning to the amendment and taking the point of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, about what we call...
Lord Freud | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I am on column GC130-31. I probably should not bore everyone by reading it all out again.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) Which column is the noble Lord referring to?
Lord Freud | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. I should start again on our little side issue about whether ...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c196GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend makes an interesting and pertinent point. I am grateful for that.
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c204-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his amendme...
Earl of Listowel | 716 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution) I want to step into this discussion. I agree with everything that has been said about this very diff...
Lord Freud | 716 c202GC (Link to this contribution) To be honest, I am not an expert on the most effective interventions for the most vulnerable childre...
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Only for one year. It is simply a rollover figure.
Lord Freud | 716 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution) As the Minister knows all too well, avoidance is not to be found in the "informal", "black", "underg...
Earl of Listowel | 716 c205-6GC (Link to this contribution) I may have been incorrect earlier. I said that the Government and local authorities had a target to ...
Baroness Crawley | 716 c207GC (Link to this contribution) This may a convenient moment for the Committee to break for 15 minutes.
Lord Freud | 716 c207GC (Link to this contribution) 12: Clause 6, page 3, line 13, at end insert "so as accurately to reflect relative costs"
Lord Freud | 716 c207-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment is driving at whether the method of equivalising households selected here is...
Lord Freud | 716 c209GC (Link to this contribution) At every level. Funnily enough, the noble Baroness should welcome an approach that looks at rebalanc...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c211GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is correct to say that Clause 6(1)(e) states that regulations may propose, ""how net ...
Lord Freud | 716 c210GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that response. I note that Clause 6(1)(e) states that regulations may be ma...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, for his amendment, which, again, has prompted an inter...
Lord Freud | 716 c212GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, once again I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Baroness’s concern that financia...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c176-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thought that it might be for the convenience of the Committee if I were to group my Amen...
Lord Morris of Handsworth | 716 c175-6GC (Link to this contribution) Let me say at the outset that I welcome the provision of income-related target-setting provided for ...
Lord Freud | 716 c230GC (Link to this contribution) No. Having begun to learn the conventions, I will assume that there has been a formal intervention b...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for tabling the...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that it is technically not defined currently in the Bill. To give some assistance, I un...
Lord Freud | 716 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I think I understood the technicalities. I was just interested in whether the Minister would give us...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c223GC (Link to this contribution) In moving the amendment, I will speak also to Amendments 47, 56 and 76, which I grouped with it in t...
Lord Freud | 716 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, notes, her Amendment 18 has been overtaken by the la...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c225GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I also support the earlier amendments. I take this opportunity to say that I had not reali...
Lord McKenzie of Luton | 716 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will be brief about these amendments and thank the noble Baroness for moving them. As sh...
Lord Northbourne | 716 c228GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the noble Baroness’s amendment because it is important not only that the appoint...
Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 716 c228GC (Link to this contribution) I should hope so. I feel very strongly about this. The Minister knows that I am a great champion of ...
Baroness Walmsley | 716 c226GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 20 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Freud.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 716 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I gently suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that it does not work like that. In...
Lord Freud | 716 c215-6GC (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment would change the name of the commission from the Child Poverty Commission to...
Subjects
Disability
Children
Children in care
Accountability
Disadvantaged
Costs
Fraud
Employment
Families
Education
Households
Low incomes
Ministerial responsibility
Public appointments
Poverty
Public bodies
Public consultation
Lone parents
Statistics
Social security benefits
Welfare tax credits
Training
Travellers
Tax evasion
Self-employed
Child Poverty Commission
Legislation
Child Poverty Bill 2008-09 to 2009-10
Link
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