Parliamentary search - Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

711 c985-1017,1035-56

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Business, Innovation and Skills

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

Government defeats
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 42-EN also published.
Wednesday, 6 May 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1053 (Link to this contribution) We sympathise strongly with the argument for increased access, especially access to apprenticeships,...

Lord Low of Dalston | 711 c1053-4 (Link to this contribution) Noble Lords will know that I am chairman of the RNIB, so it is not surprising that I welcome this am...

Show all contributions (109)

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1052 (Link to this contribution) Clause 10 [Apprenticeship frameworks: interpretation]: Amendment 12 12: Clause 10, page 5, line 37...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1052-3 (Link to this contribution) In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment 14, which is grouped with it. The amendment...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1056 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply and thank all noble Lords for supporting the amendment, in partic...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1054 (Link to this contribution) I echo what my noble friend Lord Low has said. It would be nice if we had reached the point when we ...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1055 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. As I have already said this evening, I fully support t...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1049 (Link to this contribution) Let me correct any misunderstanding. I was saying that there were some forms of training provider or...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if the Minister would accept that, whatever is on the certificate, the question that anybod...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1050 (Link to this contribution) On a point of information, what appears on the certificate issued by the sector skills council at th...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1050 (Link to this contribution) If somebody is capable of providing the answer to that question, we will do so. This debate is, I be...

Lord Elton | 711 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I can help the Minister a little by pointing out that we would be quite happy to accept his definiti...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I feel that this is becoming a circular debate—we are reiterating the points. Perhaps I ought to at ...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1051 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all the noble Lords who have spoken on these amendments, and indeed to the Minister...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1052 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 10 10: Clause 9, page 5, line 22, at end insert— "( ) the name of the further education c...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1052 (Link to this contribution) I will not be moving this amendment, but in the light of the Minister’s remarks we believe that this...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1043 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 9 proposes that the apprenticeship certificate must state that the qualifications "have be...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1043-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 10 in this group. It is somewhat surprising to find such detail about the...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1049 (Link to this contribution) The Minister was implying that this was an unnecessary additional piece on the certificate. There wo...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1049 (Link to this contribution) I was rightly accused by the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, of implying a differentiation in standards ...

Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1048 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what my noble friend has just said. I found it extremely upsetting that the Minis...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1048-9 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could have phrased that more carefully. I certainly did not mean to impugn the quality of ...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1046-7 (Link to this contribution) The amendments raise some important issues that we grappled with in developing the requirements for ...

Lord Lucas | 711 c1048 (Link to this contribution) It would be a fascinating principle to apply to universities. The proposition that we should know th...

Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1045-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 11 in my name. Before doing so, I congratulate all noble Lords who have s...

Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1046 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. It is difficult for us to realise how confusing the world of education c...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c1041 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister and all those who have taken part in a debate that I did not anticipat...

Lord Elton | 711 c1042-3 (Link to this contribution) I cannot withdraw my amendment until I have understood the reason why I am being asked to do so. Let...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1043 (Link to this contribution) Our view is that these amendments would reduce the level of clarity, which is to be certain that Wel...

Lord Elton | 711 c1043 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the noble Lord for that. It seems to me that I must come back with the word "regulat...

Lord Elton | 711 c1041 (Link to this contribution) Clause 5: Duty to issue apprenticeship certificates: Wales Amendment 7 7: Clause 5, page 3, line 2...

Lord Elton | 711 c1041-2 (Link to this contribution) In moving Amendment 7, I shall also speak to Amendment 8, which is consequential to it. I will also ...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1042 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Elton, is trying to do. It is bad enough, when you have...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1042 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend explained his amendment with his usual clarity. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsl...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1043 (Link to this contribution) Clause 9: Contents of apprenticeship certificate Amendment 9 9: Clause 9, page 5, line 22, at end ...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c1040 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could decide what to do about my amendment. It is after the dinner hour, and I thought tha...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1040-1 (Link to this contribution) To address one point, having met a number of BMW and Porsche apprentices, I assure the noble Viscoun...

Lord Elton | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) The House has accepted a definition of an apprenticeship which includes a mixture of on and off-the-...

Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) As somebody who is very heavily involved in the sector skills councils, I support the final statemen...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) It is not a matter of iniquity. We are addressing the fact that, first, we have devolved powers in t...

Lord Lucas | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) What ill would befall, if this section were left out, and it were merely left to the good sense of t...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I was simply trying to respond to a question about who would take responsibility for learners on the...

Lord Elton | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that we were discussing hypothetical cases. He also said that there would be occas...

Lord Lucas | 711 c1039-40 (Link to this contribution) Yes, indeed. A lot of jobs, after all, involve being outside the United Kingdom, let alone being in ...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1039 (Link to this contribution) I might point out to the Minister that subsection (7) makes it quite clear that the key issue is tha...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) It is not the fee structure, it is that we have devolved powers. The differences between England and...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, this subsection is intended to reflect the fact that the English certifying autho...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) I find this rather confusing. Could it be that some difference of fee structure is making clarificat...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1037 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that there would be slight variations between England and Wales. Can he expand a b...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1036-7 (Link to this contribution) Let us hope that I can shed some light. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, raised an interesting poin...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1036 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my noble friend Lord Eccles that the purpose of subsection (7) is opaque to say the lea...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) So at the moment, since they are the certifying authority, the apprenticeship certificates are issue...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Yes, they do.

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1038 (Link to this contribution) Am I right in thinking that at present the certifying authorities are sector skills councils? Do the...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1037 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give the noble Lord a specific example, except to say that they are a different authority a...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c1036 (Link to this contribution) Clause 1(7) states: ""An ‘English apprenticeship agreement’ … is an agreement under which a person u...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1036 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for moving his amendment. There are those who think that the Welsh should be ...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1016-7 (Link to this contribution) I add my voice to the many who have praised the excellent work of Rathbone and Barnardo’s in helping...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1016 (Link to this contribution) I support in particular the widening of access and the emphasis on a majority element of training in...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1017 (Link to this contribution) It was not my intention to suggest that they are not high-quality programmes. I am saying that we ha...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1017 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister, particularly as he said that he would give the matter consideration a...

Earl of Listowel | 711 c1015 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment. Clearly, there is a lot of concern about this, from Rathbone in pa...

Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1015 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend in these amendments and I welcome the comment made by the Minister in resp...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1013 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 4 4: Clause 1, page 2, line 34, at end insert— "( ) as part of a recognised programme of ...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1013-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 62 and 207. Before I get into the substance of the amendment, I sho...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1012 (Link to this contribution) We understand the intention behind the amendment, which is to ensure that the quality of apprentices...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1012 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his explanation. I said that this was a probing amendment, and I can certai...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1012 (Link to this contribution) The amendment seeks to probe the Government on the purpose of the inclusion of the words "otherwise ...

Lord De Mauley | 711 c1012 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 3A 3A: Clause 1, page 2, line 34, leave out paragraph (b)

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1010-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for his response and to other noble Lords for their substantive contri...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1008-10 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 would insert a new clause that would place the National Apprenticeship Service on the fa...

Lord Elton | 711 c1008 (Link to this contribution) I endorse what my noble friend Lady Perry has said, particularly about centralisation. If we must go...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1002-5 (Link to this contribution) In speaking to this amendment, I shall speak to all the other amendments in this grouping in my name...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1002 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 2 2: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— "The National Apprenticeship Servi...

Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1006-7 (Link to this contribution) As so often, I greatly sympathise with what the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has argued. I also great...

Lord Hunt of Wirral | 711 c1005-6 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with the amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guilford, has just p...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1007-8 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support this series of amendments, and Amendment 2 in particular. The more I look through th...

Lord Low of Dalston | 711 c1007 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment because the National Apprenticeship Service needs a separate status. Under t...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c998-9 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness talked about the nature of the employment relationship. There is a balance to be ...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c999 (Link to this contribution) I have been listening to all of this because I have considerable sympathy with all the points that h...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c999 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe and Lady Sharp, said. We think we have got the specific ...

Lord Hunt of Wirral | 711 c999-1000 (Link to this contribution) What an interesting debate this has been. First, I welcome the noble Lord to his new position as Par...

Lord Brookman | 711 c997 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to prolong the discussion, but everything the Minister said is right. What on earth ar...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c997 (Link to this contribution) My answer was a little more explanatory than, "It will be all right on the night". I pointed out a n...

Lord Elton | 711 c997 (Link to this contribution) The other thing that puzzled me about the noble Lord’s remarks is that he spent a great deal of time...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c996-7 (Link to this contribution) I am hurt. I did not believe that I was being antagonistic—I thought that I was being emollient. Rat...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c998 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that we need the specification, the standards and the agreement. They are all defi...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c998 (Link to this contribution) I think that would probably be best. I accept what my noble friend said but, nevertheless, I am sure...

Earl of Listowel | 711 c997-8 (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies to that statement, may I briefly interject to prevent him having to get ...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c993-6 (Link to this contribution) In prefacing my reply I should declare my interest as a former apprentice, I suppose, so I have had ...

Lord Elton | 711 c996 (Link to this contribution) The centre of the noble Lord’s opposition to my noble friend’s request for a definition of apprentic...

Earl of Listowel | 711 c993 (Link to this contribution) Briefly, I want to support the noble Baroness, Lady Perry of Southwark. I was speaking recently to, ...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c989 (Link to this contribution) They are not, necessarily, obviously, but there are occasions when those with disabilities—as everyo...

Lord Elton | 711 c989 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I am asking how it excludes disabled people, rather than others. I take the point th...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c989 (Link to this contribution) If you write into the Bill that they must be employed, it can create difficulties in this respect.

Lord Elton | 711 c989 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me. She is very anxious about the exclusion of people wi...

Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c987-9 (Link to this contribution) I cannot declare any interest in relation to learning providers such as McDonald’s, but I declare an...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c992 (Link to this contribution) I would like to try a line about inclusion. I think the whole House would agree that further educati...

Lord Elton | 711 c992 (Link to this contribution) I also welcome this group of amendments. It is essential that we know what the Bill is about. I shal...

Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c991-2 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support these amendments. I have added my name to three of them that emphasise the element o...

Lord Sheikh | 711 c990-1 (Link to this contribution) I support all the amendments in this group. However, I want to talk specifically about Amendments 1,...

Earl of Listowel | 711 c990 (Link to this contribution) While welcoming what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, has said about it being clear in the Bill ...

Lord Hunt of Wirral | 711 c985-7 (Link to this contribution) First, I declare my interests as recorded in the register with one important addition as of this mom...

Lord Hunt of Wirral | 711 c985 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 1 1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— "Definition of "apprenticeship" An...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1050 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. He encourages me again to try to make the point that I was going to make a mom...

Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1042 (Link to this contribution) Imagination is a wonderful thing. This is definitely one for the connoisseurs. I am grateful to the ...

Baroness Walmsley | 711 c1017 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Minister that it is important that the quality is maintained, but perhaps he will b...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1015 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendments because the issues raised are important. I feel sure that the Government wi...

Viscount Eccles | 711 c1035 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 5 5: Clause 1, page 2, line 35, leave out subsection (7)

Subjects

Access

Disability

Disadvantaged

Apprentices

Certification

Equality

Education

Further education

Learning and Skills Council for England

Educational institutions