Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

What an interesting debate this has been. First, I welcome the noble Lord to his new position as Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. I am delighted with his appointment as he knows a great deal and, as his noble friend Lord Brookman said, he was an apprentice. But I would differ with the noble Lord, Lord Brookman, in that we have moved on from the sort of apprenticeship that the noble Lord undertook. I pay tribute to the TUC and the CBI and to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Lea. I see the noble Lord, Lord Morris, in his place. A number of noble Lords helped us all to try to move forward with the whole notion of apprenticeship. The noble Lord has sought to clarify for everyone that the Government have given a great deal of thought to the question of whether there should be a definition of apprenticeship. They have concluded right at the outset that there should not be such a definition. As the noble Baroness said, it is contained all over the place. The noble Lord tried to explain by saying that it could all be in the agreement—part of what the employer agrees to. But that is a sort of bureaucratic answer. I want someone to know what an apprenticeship is. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Perry of Southwark and a number of other noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Sheikh and Lord Eccles. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, made a very important contribution, which was absolutely on all fours with what my noble friend Lady Perry said. My noble friend Lord Elton pinpointed this area by giving the Minister a chance to say, "All right, we will go away, have a look and try to reach a decision about what the definition should be". The noble Lord had that opportunity, but he sought to avoid it by resorting to something that I used to have to do—defend the indefensible. I readily admit that there were those times, and I sense that deep down he would like a definition. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all her experience. She served with Tim Boswell, my honourable friend in the other place on the Skills Commission, and has done valuable work at Guildford College of Further and Higher Education. We will come to many of her points in other debates. There must be no barriers; no bar. Some of us have been discussing how we recognise pre-apprenticeship and how apprenticeship becomes part of an ongoing process, which is extremely important. This is the new way in which real apprenticeships can be fashioned. As always, I found myself in total agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote. We have a sense that we want a general definition. What on earth should I do? My noble friends Lady Verma and Lord De Mauley have given me the answer. I am moving Amendment 1. Let me make it clear that I am doing it because I wish to have a definition, but not one that excludes. I cite the three proposed new subsections referring to, ""an agreement with an employer to train a person, using the practices, equipment and personnel of his or her enterprise in doing so … a mixture of on and off-the job learning"—" the balanced point— ""and … training designed to lead to a generally recognised level of proficiency in a trade, profession or occupation"." That is the limit on which I wish to test the opinion of the Committee. I believe that there should be a definition. Whether this is just a step—the noble Lord said that perhaps this is the start of the process and believes that it can be achieved in other ways—I think we ought to pause for moment to ask whether this is the path we want to follow. Let us have a definition. This is a good start at a definition. There is more to be done and more amendments to come. In the mean time, I beg leave to test the opinion of the Committee on Amendment 1. Division on Amendment 1 Contents 135; Not-Contents 112. Amendment 1 agreed.