UK Parliament / Open data

European Union (Amendment) Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 5 March 2008, in the House of Commons.
European Union (Amendment) Bill. Committee stage eleventh day. Amendment 293 negatived on division (248 votes to 311). Amendment 296 negatived on division (247 votes to 311). Clause 8 agreed to on division (355 votes to 218). New Clause 9 negatived on division (48 votes to 380). Bill reported without amendment.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
472 c1751-882 
Session
2007-08
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
European Union (Amendment) Bill. (Explanatory note Bill 48-EN published).
Monday, 17 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
John Redwood | 472 c1766;472 c1764 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a powerful case. Did he notice two other things about that interesting re...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1766;472 c1764 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) just said that.

Show all contributions (453)
John Redwood | 472 c1766-7;472 c1764-5 (Link to this contribution) No; my right hon. Friend said ““greater than his majority””. The number of votes for the referendum ...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1765;472 c1763 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, because he avoided answering my previous i...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1765;472 c1763 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that there are some differences on justice and home affairs...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1766;472 c1764 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish my point about the Liberal Democrats before I take a further intervention. The leader...
Angus Robertson | 472 c1766;472 c1764 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right to point out that every party in the House committed itself to a r...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1767;472 c1765 (Link to this contribution) It was a shame to discourage people from voting. My right hon. Friend has picked me up on an importa...
Nigel Evans | 472 c1764;472 c1762 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. Surely one of the fundamental changes, other t...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1764;472 c1762 (Link to this contribution) Of course that adds to the case for a referendum. It is an issue that we debated in Committee last n...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1764;472 c1762 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way once more, then I must make a little progress.
Elliot Morley | 472 c1763;472 c1761 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman speaks of opting out of measures as a nuance, but it is much more than a nu...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1764;472 c1762 (Link to this contribution) ““Nuance”” was not my word. It is the word of a former head of media for the Liberal Democrats. I wi...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1763;472 c1761 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that there are substantial differences between the constitution and the trea...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1765;472 c1763 (Link to this contribution) I hope that hon. Gentlemen will wait a moment. I am coming to the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto of 20...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1751;472 c1749 (Link to this contribution) Before I call the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) to move his amendment, may I say...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1751;472 c1749 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 293, page 4, leave out line 8 and insert—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1751;472 c1749 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 296, page 4, leave out line ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1762-3;472 c1760-1 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 293 is linked with new clause 1, and its effect is very simple: it would mean that the...
Lord Beith | 472 c1763;472 c1761 (Link to this contribution) While we are talking about trust, on the basis of the right hon. Gentleman’s considerable historical...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1763;472 c1761 (Link to this contribution) Parties should be judged on whether they keep the promises that they make. The only occasion on whic...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1763;472 c1761 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there have been substantial changes, particularly as regar...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1770;472 c1768 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman thinks that there is a fundamental difference between the documents, but my...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1769-70 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that a constitution that would have swept away every treat...
Gordon Banks | 472 c1771;472 c1768 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Ed Davey | 472 c1771;472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who is as usual making an amusing speech. However, will h...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1771;472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) We had that discussion just 10 minutes ago. Of course there are changes between the Lisbon treaty an...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1771;472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the author of the ““mouse”” argument
Mike Gapes | 472 c1770;472 c1768 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1770-1;472 c1768-9 (Link to this contribution) I know that we are in Committee, and I am trying to give way as much as I can, but I must be allowed...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1768;472 c1766 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that that is the French, but here come the Belgians. The then Belgian Foreign Mini...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1768-9;472 c1766-7 (Link to this contribution) I must complete this point, but I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman in due course. A compar...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) I must give way to the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee.
Mike Gapes | 472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman also remind the House that my Committee decided in two specific votes—...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) It is well known that that was what the Committee decided on a referendum; I am discussing whether t...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1769 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 472 c1767;472 c1765 (Link to this contribution) Given the right hon. Gentleman’s passionate commitment on the subject and his concerns about the tre...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1767;472 c1765 (Link to this contribution) I am spoiled for choice. Let us bring in the hon. Member for Truro and St. Austell (Matthew Taylor)....
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1768;472 c1766 (Link to this contribution) It certainly did not lead to their withdrawal from the European Union—some people claim that voting ...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1767;472 c1765 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman’s party has claimed throughout the debates that there has not been enough t...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1767-8;472 c1765-6 (Link to this contribution) If the people of Ireland can have a referendum, the people of Britain have every ability to hold one...
Lord Lilley | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. Is it not a convention that when this House debates important matt...
David Miliband | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) The point has been made that discussions were ongoing at that stage, but I understand that we did no...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman is right in some circumstances, but his point applies only when Mini...
David Miliband | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) As I said a few moments ago, the increase in British voting weight in the European Council and the c...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) I think that I am likely to be voting with the right hon. Gentleman tonight, but I am not sure that ...
David Miliband | 472 c1786;472 c1784 (Link to this contribution) That is an important point and one to which I shall return at the end of my speech, although I do no...
Angela C Smith | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) The numerous interventions from Conservative Members demonstrate their inability to understand the d...
David Miliband | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) In respect of article 17, that has been the fundamental issue regarding Britain’s membership of the ...
Baroness Browning | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that one of the core changes is that the treaty not only extends competences, but...
David Miliband | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) I am going to make some progress because it is important to come on to justice and home affairs. I w...
David Miliband | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) I am coming on to that, but every single European leader and every single Head of Government said th...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1784-5;472 c1782-3 (Link to this contribution) When the votes were held in France and the Netherlands and the constitutional treaty as it stood was...
David Miliband | 472 c1784;472 c1782 (Link to this contribution) There are big differences. First, the structure of the constitution abandoned all previous treaties ...
Graham Stringer | 472 c1784;472 c1782 (Link to this contribution) I am following my right hon. Friend’s attempts to define the Lisbon treaty. Can he think of a better...
David Miliband | 472 c1784;472 c1782 (Link to this contribution) I would never describe the Foreign Affairs Committee’s conclusions as absurd. However, to give just ...
Gerald Howarth | 472 c1784;472 c1782 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary has prayed in aid some comments of the Foreign Affairs Committee, so may I rem...
Lord Field of Birkenhead | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) While it is important for the Foreign Secretary to set out what he thinks are the differences, are w...
David Miliband | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) I think that many factors will drive up the turnout at the next general election—[Interruption.] My ...
David Miliband | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee.
Michael Connarty | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) I heard the Foreign Secretary pray in aid the comments of the Foreign Affairs Committee, so it might...
David Miliband | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) I shall take an intervention on foreign policy first.
John Baron | 472 c1783;472 c1781 (Link to this contribution) Is not the Foreign Secretary trying to create a smokescreen by addressing some of the more absurd cl...
Lord Deben | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) Would not the right hon. Gentleman find his case much easier to make, without any of this persiflage...
David Miliband | 472 c1780;472 c1778 (Link to this contribution) There is no power in the treaty for new tax-raising powers for the European Union. There is no repla...
William Cash | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. The Foreign Secretary said that he was dealing with important matt...
David Miliband | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) No, I need to make some progress. Absurd claims have been made about what the treaty does, but ther...
David Miliband | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) Until I heard the second half of the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention, I was going to say that I ...
David Miliband | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) May I just finish my quotation from the Foreign Affairs Committee, as it is important in this respec...
David Miliband | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) The issue of what the treaty does in respect of foreign policy, justice, home affairs and other matt...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1779-80;472 c1777-8 (Link to this contribution) Not that long—[Laughter.] Well, not as long as some of my colleagues. I am a little confused about t...
David Miliband | 472 c1780;472 c1778 (Link to this contribution) We do not. We have it very clear that there should be a referendum when there is a shift in the fund...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1780;472 c1778 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is creating an entirely new constitutional principle—namely, that we hold U...
David Miliband | 472 c1780;472 c1778 (Link to this contribution) The important issue is that we have experience of one referendum on the European Union, of referendu...
David Miliband | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) We went through this in detail on Second Reading. The argument was that it was vital, in the words o...
David Miliband | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) I shall take a last intervention from the right hon. Gentleman, who has long taken an interest in th...
David Miliband | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) The reason is to do with whether there is a fundamental shift in the balance of power, as there was ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1780;472 c1778 (Link to this contribution) Order. We must not have that kind of intervention from the Opposition Front Bench.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) Order. We cannot have interjections from a sedentary position when—[Interruption.] Order. We cannot ...
David Miliband | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) Every Government and leader in Europe has recognised that the constitution has been abandoned—[Inter...
John Redwood | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) Is the Foreign Secretary seriously suggesting that a bigger transfer of power was involved when refe...
David Miliband | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) No, of course I am not saying that. What I am saying is that referendums were held on devolution in ...
Mark Harper | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) The Prime Minister met the leader of Ireland to discuss the treaty in July last year. After the meet...
David Miliband | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman, the former Secretary of State for Social Securit...
Lord Lilley | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary said that a novel constitutional concept was being introduced. Is he saying th...
Philip Davies | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) Following the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), the Governm...
David Miliband | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) On Second Reading, we discussed the fact that, when the former Prime Minister announced that a refer...
David Miliband | 472 c1777;472 c1775 (Link to this contribution) I will make a little progress and then I will give way to right hon. and hon. Members. The right ho...
David Miliband | 472 c1777;472 c1775 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash).
William Cash | 472 c1777;472 c1775 (Link to this contribution) Does the Foreign Secretary deny that there is a whole range of fundamental changes in the relationsh...
David Miliband | 472 c1778;472 c1776 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will know that the provisions on legal personality have been around since Maastri...
David Miliband | 472 c1776;472 c1774 (Link to this contribution) This important debate raises fundamental questions about our parliamentary democracy, and about the ...
Nigel Evans | 472 c1776;472 c1774 (Link to this contribution) When the Foreign Secretary fought the 2005 general election on a manifesto that promised a referendu...
David Miliband | 472 c1776;472 c1774 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that a significant number of the members of the shadow Ca...
Desmond Swayne | 472 c1777;472 c1775 (Link to this contribution) The comparison with Maastricht simply will not wash. No party went to the general election that prec...
Peter Tapsell | 472 c1776;472 c1774 (Link to this contribution) I happen to be one of the Members of this House who voted in favour of a referendum on the Maastrich...
David Miliband | 472 c1777;472 c1775 (Link to this contribution) I am going to address directly the novel constitutional argument that the right hon. Member for Rich...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1773;472 c1771 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), then I shall try to conclude.
Lord Foster of Bath | 472 c1773;472 c1771 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. On the answer he just gave, he has be...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) If the Liberal Democrat party is so concerned about the implications of a ““no”” result in a referen...
David Howarth | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) The amendment that stands in the name of the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West (Mr. Davidson) allo...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) If the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Glasgow, South-West were passed, we could be sure tha...
Rob Marris | 472 c1773;472 c1771 (Link to this contribution) I think that the United Kingdom negotiated a good deal. Indeed, many in France would say that the re...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1771-3;472 c1769-71 (Link to this contribution) I must proceed for another few minutes. The Government cannot argue that the treaty is different an...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1773;472 c1771 (Link to this contribution) Of course, there are many arguments, which are probably beyond the scope of the amendment—they are c...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1775;472 c1773 (Link to this contribution) In fairness to the Committee, I must try to conclude my remarks, because I want to put one further a...
Adrian Bailey | 472 c1775;472 c1773 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1775;472 c1773 (Link to this contribution) It might be both. There is a patronising attitude along the lines of, ““Although this is important, ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1775-6;472 c1773-4 (Link to this contribution) No, I am explaining my argument. It is central to people’s faith in participation, which we so stro...
Philip Davies | 472 c1774-5;472 c1772-3 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is again making an excellent speech. Does he agree that the crux of the matter ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) The logic of the hon. Gentleman’s argument is that no nation is allowed to vote no, that even the po...
Ed Davey | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) On the question of what would happen if there were a referendum and the country voted no, the right ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1774;472 c1772 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman must make his own speech, but I shall let him intervene one more time.
Jeremy Browne | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) Has not the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) perfectly summarised the Conse...
Ed Davey | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely; my hon. Friend describes the Conservatives’ position completely.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1794-5;472 c1792-3 (Link to this contribution) The Conservatives have consistently failed to acknowledge that if they were to win the vote tonight,...
Ed Davey | 472 c1795;472 c1793 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, but I have to say that the position for the Conservatives ...
Ed Davey | 472 c1793;472 c1791 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and when the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks was challenge...
Ed Davey | 472 c1793;472 c1791 (Link to this contribution) I have given way already, and I promise that I will give way later, but first I want to make a littl...
Ed Davey | 472 c1793-4;472 c1791-2 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman has been a real ally during the debates on the Lisbon treaty, b...
Baroness Hoey | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), who has a very principled position on...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1793;472 c1791 (Link to this contribution) Does not the history of our European debates demonstrate that people demand referendums only when th...
Ed Davey | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) That was not a very good try from the hon. Gentleman. He said that we were afraid of a referendum. W...
Julian Lewis | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) Of course, the consistency of my right hon. and learned Friend’s position is that because he believe...
Ed Davey | 472 c1794;472 c1792 (Link to this contribution) I would not say that about the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but I would like to quote him on th...
Clive Efford | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) I think that when the arguments about the referendum die down people will understand that the mainst...
David Miliband | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has used his own very good memory to good effect in exposing the hypocrisy of the Con...
Denis MacShane | 472 c1786;472 c1784 (Link to this contribution) Has the Foreign Secretary had time to read a short but very compact biography of Edward Heath which ...
David Miliband | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. I hope he will send me a signed copy of his book for m...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) I hate to say this, but I agree with the shadow Foreign Secretary. He said:"““Democratic accountabil...
David Miliband | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important and good point. The record of the right hon. Member for Richmond, ...
David Miliband | 472 c1786;472 c1784 (Link to this contribution) No. I want to make some progress. The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks talked a great deal abo...
David Miliband | 472 c1786;472 c1784 (Link to this contribution) No. I want to make some progress. Sixteen changes do not affect us, because we are not in economic ...
David Miliband | 472 c1789;472 c1787 (Link to this contribution) I do not know how many times I must say this before the hon. Gentleman recognises that it has been s...
David Miliband | 472 c1788;472 c1786 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been so polite and persistent that I am happy to give way to him.
Mark Harper | 472 c1788-9;472 c1786-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary. Will he acknowledge that this is the key difference? Not onl...
David Miliband | 472 c1788;472 c1786 (Link to this contribution) No. I must make some progress. The treaty of Maastricht provided the blueprint for economic and mon...
David Miliband | 472 c1787-8;472 c1785-6 (Link to this contribution) I certainly believe that it would send us to the margins of Europe, which would be very damaging to ...
Gordon Banks | 472 c1787;472 c1785 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) said that, while he thought he could s...
Ed Davey | 472 c1790;472 c1788 (Link to this contribution) It is a shame that the right hon. Gentleman, who is a distinguished Member of this House, is not lis...
Mark Harper | 472 c1790;472 c1788 (Link to this contribution) Let me just ask the hon. Gentleman this: my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Ha...
Ed Davey | 472 c1790-1;472 c1788-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not know if the hon. Gentleman has actually read the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Gl...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1791;472 c1789 (Link to this contribution) I have never read a Liberal Democrat manifesto, and I have no intention of doing so in the near futu...
Ed Davey | 472 c1791;472 c1789 (Link to this contribution) Let me try once again, for the hon. Gentleman’s benefit. We have made it absolutely clear that we ar...
Ed Davey | 472 c1789-90;472 c1787-8 (Link to this contribution) It is already clear from the debate that the key question is whether the Lisbon treaty is the same a...
David Miliband | 472 c1789;472 c1787 (Link to this contribution) I want to bring my speech to a close. On day five of the debate, on foreign affairs, the right hon....
John Redwood | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Liberal spokesman for giving way. Does he not understand that people outside th...
Ed Davey | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman would have done his case some good if he had voted with us yesterday. He wo...
Ed Davey | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The difference between the Lisbon treaty and the constitutional ...
Ed Davey | 472 c1791;472 c1789 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress; I will give way again later. Let me return to the differences between...
Ed Davey | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) I refer the hon. Lady to the record, as I have answered that question at three separate stages.
Anne Main | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman thinks that this treaty is simply a bundling-up of a few amendments that he fe...
Ed Davey | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for St. Albans (Anne Main) and then to my hon. Friend the Member...
Ed Davey | 472 c1791-2;472 c1789-90 (Link to this contribution) I will give way later. The truth is that the Conservatives do not want to know the facts about the ...
Peter Bone | 472 c1802;472 c1800 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s argument, but I have the text of the 2005 Labour party manif...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1802;472 c1800 (Link to this contribution) The manifesto is very clear. It states that we will put the "““new Constitutional Treaty…to the Brit...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1802;472 c1800 (Link to this contribution) As I had a role in putting together the manifesto, I am clear about what it said. I think that the w...
Julian Lewis | 472 c1802-3;472 c1800-1 (Link to this contribution) Let us focus closely on that specific point. I am happy to concede that it is clear that the Lisbon ...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1801-2;472 c1799-800 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to explain why the manifesto referred to just the new constitutional treaty, and why we ...
William Cash | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) I cannot remember whether the right hon. Gentleman was at the heart of Government when the decision ...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) The people have not yet had the opportunity to hear my argument. When they have, we might see a shif...
Graham Stuart | 472 c1800;472 c1798 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman makes a persuasive case, but will he accept that he has failed to persuade ...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1800;472 c1798 (Link to this contribution) No, and I shall explain why. The hon. Gentleman has a principled position on the European Union, whi...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) It is a failing of all the main political parties that we have not had the courage or the ambition t...
Jim Cunningham | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that more needs to be done to explain the treaty to the British peop...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) My second point is about the differences between the constitutional treaty and the Lisbon treaty.
Stephen Byers | 472 c1800;472 c1798 (Link to this contribution) I wish to support the position taken by the Foreign Secretary and to argue against the amendments an...
Baroness Browning | 472 c1795;472 c1793 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
Lord Lilley | 472 c1796;472 c1794 (Link to this contribution) May I help the hon. Gentleman explain why his party cannot decide whether to vote in favour of keepi...
Ed Davey | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman. I hope that he will be able to say what the differences are....
Ed Davey | 472 c1798;472 c1796 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that I disagree with the hon. Lady. The idea that that is a constitutional issue deservi...
Ed Davey | 472 c1798-9;472 c1796-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way, because I want to make some progress. As the House knows, the Liberal Democ...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c1798;472 c1796 (Link to this contribution) I would like to challenge the hon. Gentleman’s use of the word ““modest””. I think it is good that t...
David Chaytor | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) I return to the reference to Maastricht. This is our 11th day of debate on the Lisbon treaty. Has a ...
Ed Davey | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman has it in one, and I congratulate him.
Ed Davey | 472 c1796;472 c1794 (Link to this contribution) My point was that a vote on the constitutional treaty was the relevant in-out referendum. The hon. G...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1805-6;472 c1803-4 (Link to this contribution) That is a helpful intervention, and the response of Conservative Members says it all. The Conservati...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1805;472 c1803 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful. Is not the situation worse than the right hon. Gentleman says? The Conservative party...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1805;472 c1803 (Link to this contribution) I will, but this will probably be the last time.
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1806-7;472 c1804-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the chance to take part in the debate. I had hoped to speak about the referendum o...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 472 c1806;472 c1804 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that at the last election, given the manifesto pledge on wh...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1807;472 c1805 (Link to this contribution) I am intrigued by the argument that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is developing, but what is ...
David Howarth | 472 c1808;472 c1806 (Link to this contribution) I, too, am intrigued by the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s argument. If he is saying that all th...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1808-9;472 c1806-7 (Link to this contribution) I wholly agree with my right hon. Friend. Our point is that, to talk in the terms used by Labour Mem...
Patricia Hewitt | 472 c1808;472 c1806 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for giving way, especially as I was ...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1809;472 c1807 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman not accept the basic political facts of life? It takes two...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1809;472 c1807 (Link to this contribution) I do not know what the hon. Gentleman thought he was doing when he fought the last election, when he...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1810;472 c1808 (Link to this contribution) Ah, yes; the consolidation argument, which states that if a variety of treaties are brought together...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1802;472 c1800 (Link to this contribution) I have a choice; both hon. Members are very Eurosceptic, so I am not getting a balance. I shall take...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1802;472 c1800 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes the point about what was said in the manifesto very well. It contained a ...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1801;472 c1799 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman knows that many issues arise in general elections and that it is often diff...
Ed Davey | 472 c1799-800;472 c1797-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady still has not got it, and I am slightly worried for her. I will argue for the inclusio...
Ed Davey | 472 c1795;472 c1793 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress, but I will take interventions later.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1795;472 c1793 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman has indicated that he wants to make some progress but will take interventi...
Ed Davey | 472 c1795-6;472 c1793-4 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has informed me from a sedentary position that the new Government of Cyprus, who are co...
William Cash | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) I would rather deal initially with the reference to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for ...
Baroness Hoey | 472 c1799;472 c1797 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman include in the Liberal Democrats’ next election manifesto a pledge to have a...
Ed Davey | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) I doubt whether a love-in is emerging in the Conservative party. I do not know whether the hon. Gent...
Ed Davey | 472 c1798;472 c1796 (Link to this contribution) No. Let us examine some of the many similarities. Both treaties sought to change ““ecu”” to ““euro”...
Ed Davey | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not; there has been a deafening silence. Interestingly, up to this point the Conservative...
Ed Davey | 472 c1796-7;472 c1794-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall make some progress. I have dealt at length with the difference in nature between the treati...
George Howarth | 472 c1797;472 c1795 (Link to this contribution) Is not comparing the Lisbon treaty with the former constitution rather like comparing the right hon....
Peter Bone | 472 c1796;472 c1794 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to many of the Committee proceedings, during which the hon. Gentleman has made a str...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1803;472 c1801 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s concession, but the manifesto and our promise to the British ...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1803;472 c1801 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend. I was not in the House to hear the then shadow Foreign Secretary ...
Denis MacShane | 472 c1803;472 c1801 (Link to this contribution) Was my right hon. Friend in the House when the then shadow Foreign Secretary, the hon. Member for Wo...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1803;472 c1801 (Link to this contribution) I shall, with pleasure, for a small commission.
Stephen Byers | 472 c1804;472 c1802 (Link to this contribution) Yet again, I must disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. The promise for a referendum referred to t...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1803;472 c1801 (Link to this contribution) I do not mean to detain the right hon. Gentleman for any length of time. May I take him back to the ...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1804-5;472 c1802-3 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not agree with that. Interestingly, there are different constitutional situations in differ...
Graham Stuart | 472 c1804;472 c1802 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that after the rejection of the constitutional treaty by vo...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1805;472 c1803 (Link to this contribution) I agree absolutely. That is the hidden motive behind the Conservative party’s position. The 11 days ...
Mark Hendrick | 472 c1805;472 c1803 (Link to this contribution) Have not the Opposition chosen not to recognise those differences because they wish to kill the trea...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1806;472 c1804 (Link to this contribution) Clearly the hon. Gentleman was not listening to the points that I made earlier. I hope that my const...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1807-8;472 c1805-6 (Link to this contribution) I am not talking about the bureaucracy of the European Union, but about the wishes of the British pe...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1808;472 c1806 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with that point later. I believe that the European Union as currently constituted is un...
Mark Hendrick | 472 c1809;472 c1807 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. and learned Gentleman talks about the sovereignty of this place, yet he wants to give...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1808;472 c1806 (Link to this contribution) I am putting forward my view and I shall explain why in a moment. As we get nearer to an election, m...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1808;472 c1806 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my right hon. and learned Friend for delaying him, but the question was ridiculous. I...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1809;472 c1807 (Link to this contribution) I want to make some progress. What would be the consequences of not holding a referendum? The quest...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1810;472 c1808 (Link to this contribution) On the referendum on the constitution, it is material that the constitutional form was already deter...
Marquess of Lothian | 472 c1809-10;472 c1807-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is arguing that even if we in Britain feel that the Europe we are in is wrong, or...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1810;472 c1808 (Link to this contribution) Many of the questions associated with the treaty are immensely complicated, but at their core is the...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) I was a teacher for 14 years and I had more rowdiness in my classes than in here, but I enjoyed the ...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1862-3;472 c1860-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is recorded as having voted against a referendum nine times in the Committee. I u...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. Is it in order for the Chairman of the Committee to misquote the rep...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) That is a not a point of order for the Chair; it is a matter for debate. I am sure that the right ho...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place. Hon. Members who have been in the ...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1861;472 c1859 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. I do not have time. The campaign refers to"““a president…for the EU.””" T...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way; I do not have time. We have a short timetable. The campaign says that t...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1861;472 c1859 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not take interventions from someone who has just come in. People have been sitting here a...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1860-1;472 c1858-9 (Link to this contribution) I have enjoyed today’s debate because of the new characters who have appeared in the cast of this gr...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1858;472 c1856 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman is an experienced Member of Parliament. I am sure that he wants to e...
Lord Lilley | 472 c1858-60;472 c1856-8 (Link to this contribution) I take your point, Mrs. Heal, and entirely withdraw my previous remarks. The first argument that su...
Lord Lilley | 472 c1858;472 c1856 (Link to this contribution) I take your point, Mrs. Heal. I withdraw the point: they have the integrity of Huey Long.
Lord Lilley | 472 c1857-8;472 c1855-6 (Link to this contribution) I will go straight to one of the arguments used by those who try to cover over the change of heart t...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1857;472 c1855 (Link to this contribution) The key point is whether there has been a change in what we are determining, compared with the previ...
Anne Main | 472 c1878-9;472 c1876-7 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Alan. I seek your guidance. I disapprove of the Liberal Democrats’ principl...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1879;472 c1877 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1879;472 c1877 (Link to this contribution) Order. I hope that it is understood across the Committee that taking pictures on a camera in the Cha...
Jim Murphy | 472 c1864;472 c1862 (Link to this contribution) I take that answer to mean ““none””. The hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity—as have all hon. Mem...
Richard Shepherd | 472 c1864;472 c1862 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that we are able to get in obliquely like this. It is the accumulation of five or six trea...
Jim Murphy | 472 c1863;472 c1861 (Link to this contribution) When Conservative Members decry their former Prime Minister, who did so much, where he could, to kee...
James Clappison | 472 c1864;472 c1862 (Link to this contribution) The Minister’s point would have more force if we had had the opportunity that we were promised to sc...
Jim Murphy | 472 c1864;472 c1862 (Link to this contribution) The Conservatives are judged by their words. The hon. Gentleman cannot identify a specific proposal ...
Mark Francois | 472 c1864-6;472 c1862-4 (Link to this contribution) This has been a debate about broken promises. First, the Government promised a referendum. Then, in ...
William Cash | 472 c1863;472 c1861 (Link to this contribution) I regard that statement, from that particular gentleman, as a tribute.
Jim Murphy | 472 c1863;472 c1861 (Link to this contribution) I have six minutes to respond to what has been a fascinating and often humorous debate. As one of th...
Angus Robertson | 472 c1863;472 c1861 (Link to this contribution) In fairness, will the Chairman of the Committee point out to the House that the reason why some of u...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1854-5;472 c1852-3 (Link to this contribution) As many Members want to speak, I shall try to be as brief as possible. It is a great delight to foll...
William Cash | 472 c1854;472 c1852 (Link to this contribution) I am dealing with the constitutional implications of what the Foreign Secretary said. It is clear th...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1854;472 c1852 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman should return to the amendment.
William Cash | 472 c1853;472 c1851 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to get through my contribution as rapidly as possible, which is only fair to other hon. M...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1856;472 c1854 (Link to this contribution) Order. Will the hon. Gentleman please relate his remarks to the amendments before the House?
Chris Bryant | 472 c1855-6;472 c1853-4 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, because I am sure that there are many people in the House...
Lord Lilley | 472 c1856-7;472 c1854-5 (Link to this contribution) It is normally a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), but whereas all othe...
Mike Gapes | 472 c1850-1;472 c1848-9 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to be brief. I put a message to all Europhobes on my website, saying that I intended to ...
David Curry | 472 c1848-50;472 c1846-8 (Link to this contribution) It is certainly true that a strong body of the press articulates vitriolic hostility to the European...
Mike Gapes | 472 c1851-2;472 c1849-50 (Link to this contribution) I want to conclude. The debate in our media has not helped to clarify the issues or people’s underst...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1851;472 c1849 (Link to this contribution) Order. It is entirely up to the hon. Member on his or her feet to decide whether to give way. We are...
William Cash | 472 c1852-3;472 c1850-1 (Link to this contribution) Conservatives believe in ““trust the people””. The bottom line for the purposes of the debate is tha...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1852;472 c1850 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the Committee to come to order. Hon. Members know that this is no way in which to condu...
William Cash | 472 c1853;472 c1851 (Link to this contribution) And behind closed doors. We cross-examined the then Foreign Secretary, who made it clear that she kn...
Gerald Howarth | 472 c1821-2;472 c1819-20 (Link to this contribution) I accept that my right hon. and learned Friend has shown great principle in his stand on these matte...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1822;472 c1820 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with my hon. Friend; he and I have never really seen entirely eye to eye on this issue. I...
Graham Stuart | 472 c1821;472 c1819 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1821;472 c1819 (Link to this contribution) Let me deal with the other two parties as well. The Labour party is quite unable to explain sensibly...
Lord Jackson of Peterborough | 472 c1821;472 c1819 (Link to this contribution) I am listening with great interest to my right hon. and learned Friend’s compelling analysis. Does h...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1821;472 c1819 (Link to this contribution) I have supported it; I believe that it has been in the British national interest. We have pooled our...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1820;472 c1818 (Link to this contribution) I remember it. I cannot remember the precise words, but it is actually true. The origin of referendu...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1820-1;472 c1818-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get into the history of referendums with my hon. Friend. The history of our debates...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1819-20;472 c1817-8 (Link to this contribution) There has only ever been one United Kingdom-wide referendum in this country. I had the pleasure of c...
Mike Gapes | 472 c1820;472 c1818 (Link to this contribution) I very much agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. It would be helpful to the House if cou...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend. However, the promise came after a major statement in the Commons by the then...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) Order. I do not want the debate on this amendment to go on tour, either.
Ian Davidson | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) I will refer no further to what happened on tour, although I should remind my hon. Friend that I sti...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I remember that tour, too. I remember a number of things that my hon. Friend said, but I have a...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) Many of the things that went on during that tour will stay on tour, but my hon. Friend went on telly...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) I give way to one of my less confused colleagues.
Chris Bryant | 472 c1819;472 c1817 (Link to this contribution) When my hon. Friend and I were playing in the parliamentary rugby team in Paris last September, I re...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) In that case, why do the Liberal Democrats not have the courage of their convictions and vote agains...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is asking how the Liberal Democrats would vote if there were a referendum, but as the...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend underestimates me. In a leaflet, I made it absolutely clear to my electorate where I ...
Patricia Hewitt | 472 c1817-8;472 c1815-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend appears to be explaining to the House that he has a personal opt-out from the 2005 ma...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1818;472 c1816 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention from the Member for Boots. When I heard that a Member from Leice...
Julian Lewis | 472 c1818;472 c1816 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a long tradition of Back Benchers being allowed to disa...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1818;472 c1816 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have been very indulgent over the length of interventions, and sometimes their content, thi...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1818-9;472 c1816-7 (Link to this contribution) I was hopeful that more news would come from the front. I always thought that being a Liberal Front-...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) As we have made abundantly clear, and as the hon. Gentleman knows very well, we are very much in fav...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) I thank hon. Members for cheering in European. That is what—three in 24 minutes? Sir Alan, how long ...
Lord Brady of Altrincham | 472 c1817;472 c1815 (Link to this contribution) As ever, the hon. Gentleman’s speech is entertaining; it may also be having a remarkable impact. Is ...
David Howarth | 472 c1816;472 c1814 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the hon. Gentleman thinks so. That is precisely the sort of question that new clause ...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1815-6;472 c1813-4 (Link to this contribution) That was a fine speech. If the hon. Gentleman believes that new clause 18 is the weirdest amendment ...
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 472 c1816;472 c1814 (Link to this contribution) To avoid playing games, will the hon. Gentleman explain something to the Liberal Democrats? If he, a...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1816;472 c1814 (Link to this contribution) I dare say that I will get a great deal closer than the Liberal Democrats did yesterday. I fail to u...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1816;472 c1814 (Link to this contribution) That was then, if I may remind my hon. Friend; he was not quite the rebel then that he is now. My n...
James Clappison | 472 c1810;472 c1808 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) seems to kn...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1811;472 c1809 (Link to this contribution) Let me take a step back to what I was saying. Tony Blair, the then ““dear leader””, made the announc...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1811;472 c1809 (Link to this contribution) May I take the hon. Gentleman back to a point that I made to the Foreign Secretary, who gave an evas...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1811-2;472 c1809-10 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to Comrade Zhou for raising that point, but it is important to accept the context in w...
Stephen Byers | 472 c1811;472 c1809 (Link to this contribution) As someone who had a part to play in drawing up the little red book for the 2005 election, I hope th...
Mike Gapes | 472 c1812;472 c1810 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member said that he was in favour of a referendum. [Hon. Members: ““Hon. Friend.””] Yes, he...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1812;472 c1810 (Link to this contribution) I cannot remember whether I have been in favour of a referendum on every European treaty, but I was ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1812;472 c1810 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend says that he was bound by the manifesto commitment in the 2005 manifesto, will he ...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1812-4;472 c1810-2 (Link to this contribution) I confess that although I had a substantial personal vote, it did not single-handedly elect me to th...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1814-5;472 c1812-3 (Link to this contribution) It is not, but I was listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman’s pick-and-mix attitude to ...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1815;472 c1813 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish with the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) first.
Ian Davidson | 472 c1815;472 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I am finishing with the hon. Gentleman’s first point. Many of us know that the Liberals have a poli...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1845;472 c1843 (Link to this contribution) Order. As the amount of time left for Back-Bench speeches is very limited, I make a plea to all Memb...
Baroness Hoey | 472 c1845;472 c1843 (Link to this contribution) Anyone observing today’s debate will have been surprised by the contributions of Members who suggest...
Baroness Hoey | 472 c1845;472 c1843 (Link to this contribution) And France. I was there as well, so I am sorry that I got that wrong. It was implied that if our pe...
David Curry | 472 c1846-7;472 c1844-5 (Link to this contribution) It is never comfortable to vote with another party in this House, especially when Labour has made su...
Richard Shepherd | 472 c1847;472 c1845 (Link to this contribution) Was my right hon. Friend a member of the Government in, say, the 1992 period? On being held to manif...
David Curry | 472 c1847-8;472 c1845-6 (Link to this contribution) I reassure my hon. Friend that I always set out my own election address. The party tends to offer a ...
Lord Deben | 472 c1848;472 c1846 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that the problem with referendums is that they often transfer the de...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1844-5;472 c1842-3 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman had been in his place earlier, he would have heard my hon. Friend the Member f...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1843;472 c1841 (Link to this contribution) I asked the hon. Gentleman what I thought was a simple question, but he did not quite answer it. Fol...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1843;472 c1841 (Link to this contribution) My colleagues and I have repeated the explanation ad nauseam. If it is impossible for people to hear...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1844;472 c1842 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman travels at all in Europe or talks to our political colleagu...
Austin Mitchell | 472 c1844;472 c1842 (Link to this contribution) Not knowing the consequences has not stopped the hon. Gentleman from asserting them very vigorously—...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1843-4;472 c1841-2 (Link to this contribution) Let me make this point. One thing that the Estonian people will tell us is that they spent 700 years...
Mark Harper | 472 c1844;472 c1842 (Link to this contribution) It is interesting to note that the hon. Gentleman is willing to listen to the people of Estonia, but...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1822-3;472 c1820-1 (Link to this contribution) If my right hon. Friend will forgive me, other hon. Members are waiting to contribute. I cannot give...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1825;472 c1823 (Link to this contribution) I was coming to that very point. The Government promised a referendum on the European constitution i...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c1826;472 c1824 (Link to this contribution) I thank the right hon. Gentleman. His party is committed to holding a referendum on the euro if the ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1825;472 c1823 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to proceed for a moment? It is important to remind the Commi...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1823-4;472 c1821-2 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. I think the hard-core opponents of the treaty know that perfectly well. I have ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1823;472 c1821 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Graham Stuart | 472 c1825;472 c1823 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful argument against the use of referendums. Did he speak ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1824-5;472 c1822-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with a great deal of what the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) said...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1826;472 c1824 (Link to this contribution) I have just explained, laboriously, that we have no commitment to holding a referendum on the Lisbon...
Lord Clarke of Nottingham | 472 c1826;472 c1824 (Link to this contribution) As there is much debate about commitment to party manifestos, does the right hon. Gentleman recall, ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1827;472 c1825 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that. When this House divided on whether there should be a referendum on Maastricht ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1827-8;472 c1825-6 (Link to this contribution) I will proceed a little more. When this House debated the Maastricht treaty, the hon. Member for Al...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1827;472 c1825 (Link to this contribution) The only Conservative leader since Margaret Thatcher not to have lost a general election is the righ...
Peter Tapsell | 472 c1827;472 c1825 (Link to this contribution) As I recall, I was simultaneously a member of the Communist club, the Liberal club and the Conservat...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1827;472 c1825 (Link to this contribution) I shall Of course give way to the hon. Gentleman, who was secretary of Oxford university Labour club...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1827;472 c1825 (Link to this contribution) I want to get to the end of this bit, because I find it very interesting. Another Foreign Office Mi...
John Redwood | 472 c1828;472 c1826 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1828;472 c1826 (Link to this contribution) I see that the right hon. Gentleman voted against a referendum as well. I have the full Division lis...
John Redwood | 472 c1828;472 c1826 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has given way, because I think I can spare the Committee som...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1829-30;472 c1827-8 (Link to this contribution) I enjoy following the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman). We have agreed ...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c1829;472 c1827 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Vulcan—er, Gentleman—may try to wriggle out of the position that he took as a member ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1830-1;472 c1828-9 (Link to this contribution) Come on! I must tell the hon. Gentleman, who intervenes quite a lot, that the politics of the situat...
Mark Hendrick | 472 c1830;472 c1828 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman recall the Conservative party asking for a referendum on the Nice trea...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1831-2;472 c1829-30 (Link to this contribution) It is, but that should not surprise my hon. Friend, because he has been a student of the matter for ...
John Hayes | 472 c1831;472 c1829 (Link to this contribution) Contrary to what we heard earlier, is it not true that a mature political class and a confident Parl...
Angela C Smith | 472 c1833;472 c1831 (Link to this contribution) Is it not a fact that the time given over to discussing the Lisbon treaty in the Chamber is greater ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1832;472 c1830 (Link to this contribution) I agree and I hope that my hon. Friend catches your eye, Sir Alan. The problem is that there is a c...
Chris Huhne | 472 c1834;472 c1832 (Link to this contribution) Earlier, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to be saying that he would like the opportunity to amend th...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1834;472 c1832 (Link to this contribution) I agree. In the referendum that my hon. Friend mentions, I voted to go into the EEC. I do not resile...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c1833;472 c1831 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is making a principled case for a referendum, but there is another principled c...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1833;472 c1831 (Link to this contribution) What can I say to the hon. Lady? [Hon. Members: ““Say yes!””] I could say yes, and I will. Yes. How ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1834;472 c1832 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure why the hon. Gentleman made that intervention, because there has never been a problem ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1834-5;472 c1832-3 (Link to this contribution) I want to make progress, because I am conscious that other Members want to speak. Before I conclude,...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) What can I say? I spoke in the House in about 2004 and was not in favour of a referendum on the then...
John Redwood | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) Then why did not all those arguments dissuade the hon. Lady’s party from putting the promise in its ...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1834;472 c1832 (Link to this contribution) I agree that it is nonsense, but that is the nonsensical point made by hon. Gentleman.
Jim Cunningham | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) Most of us acknowledge that some people in our constituencies are understandably uneasy about the tr...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) It is difficult because the document is so complex. It is impossible to hold a referendum on a lengt...
Lord Deben | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady agree that it is unlikely that many people have read the treaty of Lisbon—or woul...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1836;472 c1834 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right. There is no way that people would plough through the document.
Stewart Hosie | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) The answer is what is in front of us. The referendum made a difference, but not in fundamentally cha...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that they cannot do it; I simply think that they would not bother because they woul...
Stewart Hosie | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) On three or four occasions today, the hon. Lady has said that the treaty is complicated and the peop...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) I have not conducted a survey of my colleagues, so I have no way of answering the question.
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) How many of the hon. Lady’s colleagues have read the treaty, in her opinion? Should those who have n...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1837-8;472 c1835-6 (Link to this contribution) I believe, if there is a bit of honesty, that the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and mine would like ...
David Chaytor | 472 c1838;472 c1836 (Link to this contribution) Is not the really significant thing about the French referendum that since the abandonment of the co...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) The French and the people in the Netherlands must have thought that it made sufficient difference to...
Graham Stuart | 472 c1837;472 c1835 (Link to this contribution) My constituents feel that they are capable of taking a decision on this issue. They feel that they h...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1838;472 c1836 (Link to this contribution) It is right to say that the constitution was abandoned. I want to make progress. It is clear that t...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1838-9;472 c1836-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that the treaty is all bad and does not reform; there are some very good things in i...
David Heathcoat-Amory | 472 c1838;472 c1836 (Link to this contribution) The treaty before us is the end product of a long process of renegotiation and failed reform set in ...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1839;472 c1837 (Link to this contribution) I will try to get back on track, Sir Alan.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1839;472 c1837 (Link to this contribution) Order. In the last few moments I have been listening anxiously to the hon. Lady, who now seems to be...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1839-40;472 c1837-8 (Link to this contribution) I looked very carefully at that amendment, but I am afraid that I will not support it because it men...
Desmond Swayne | 472 c1839;472 c1837 (Link to this contribution) Although the hon. Lady may be off message, as the Minister might say, she is making a powerful case ...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1840-1;472 c1838-9 (Link to this contribution) Towards the end of her speech, the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith) was in ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 472 c1841;472 c1839 (Link to this contribution) Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that 80 per cent. of voters in the north-east of Scotland want a r...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1841;472 c1839 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it possible to say that 80 per cent. of voters in the north-east of Scotland want any...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c1842;472 c1840 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is a genuinely committed European, and I believe that he would like to take...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1841-2;472 c1839-40 (Link to this contribution) Regarding the comments from those on the Benches behind me, one thing that I am proud of is that, in...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1841;472 c1839 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not. Our view is that if we vote against the amendment, we will be voting against the pri...
David Chaytor | 472 c1841;472 c1839 (Link to this contribution) For those of us who find the idea of an in-out referendum at some point in the future extremely attr...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1842;472 c1840 (Link to this contribution) We have made it abundantly clear that we are voting for the treaty, but that we are not voting for a...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1842;472 c1840 (Link to this contribution) It seems entirely consistent, given the policies of the Lib Dems, that they would want both to stay ...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1843;472 c1841 (Link to this contribution) The Conservatives’ position is quite simple. They do not wish Britain to continue as an effective me...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1768;472 c1766 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman says that the people of France and of the Netherlands had a chance to vote ...
Ed Davey | 472 c1795;472 c1793 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to make some progress. [Interruption.]
David Howarth | 472 c1815;472 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for at last getting on to new clause 18, which is odd—perhaps the most bi...
Lord Deben | 472 c1833;472 c1831 (Link to this contribution) I respect my right hon. Friend’s views on the matter, but if we took that line we should have to put...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1836-7;472 c1834-5 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I have. It is always wise when speaking in the Chamber to examine what one intends to speak abo...
Chris Bryant | 472 c1856;472 c1854 (Link to this contribution) I shall follow your advice, Mrs. Heal. Let me turn to the Liberal Democrat position on referendums a...
David Miliband | 472 c1785;472 c1783 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman on that particular issue, but I would say that...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1781;472 c1779 (Link to this contribution) Order. These are not matters for the Chair. They are matters for debate now.
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1790;472 c1788 (Link to this contribution) I am fascinated by what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I must ask him a very simple question. Alongsi...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1815;472 c1813 (Link to this contribution) If I remember correctly, the Liberals’ poll posed the question, ““Would you prefer this referendum t...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1815;472 c1813 (Link to this contribution) I will, but not immediately. I want to answer one point before moving to another. I believe that th...
William Cash | 472 c1832;472 c1830 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that in a referendum, which is itself authorised by—if I may say it—...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1863;472 c1861 (Link to this contribution) If that was the reason, I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has put it on the record. The main point ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1766;472 c1764 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. That is well said. People in 10 parliamentary constituencies have had the opportunity, o...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c1767;472 c1765 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman asks me to look a long way into the future. It is perfectly understandable that h...
David Miliband | 472 c1782;472 c1780 (Link to this contribution) As it happens, I am about to come on to another quotation from my hon. Friend’s Committee, which is ...
David Gauke | 472 c1779;472 c1777 (Link to this contribution) If I understand the Foreign Secretary correctly, he has just said that the constitutional treaty did...
Lord Foster of Bath | 472 c1793;472 c1791 (Link to this contribution) May I take my hon. Friend back to a point that he made a few minutes ago? He made it very clear that...
Lord Taylor of Goss Moor | 472 c1792;472 c1790 (Link to this contribution) Did my hon. Friend notice that when the shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Richmond...
Iain Duncan Smith | 472 c1833;472 c1831 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend and I are as at one on much of what he said, but the difference between the tre...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1843;472 c1841 (Link to this contribution) Order. Perhaps the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce) could make it clear whether he will ...
Michael Connarty | 472 c1862;472 c1860 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the case is put in such a way as to suggest that the European Scrutiny Committee s...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 472 c1858;472 c1856 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Gentleman should think carefully about the language that he uses and the insin...
David Miliband | 472 c1778-9;472 c1776-7 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not saying that. My case is that this treaty does not represent a fundamental shift in the ...
Bob Spink | 472 c1800;472 c1798 (Link to this contribution) I shall present a petition later today on a referendum on this treaty. The Clerks have asked me to c...
Ian Davidson | 472 c1816;472 c1814 (Link to this contribution) I am never entirely sure whether the Liberal Democrats are quite as silly as they pretend—[Interrupt...
Baroness Hoey | 472 c1845-6;472 c1843-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to take any interventions, because I know that many Members wish to speak. Let me ma...
Geraldine Smith | 472 c1835-6;472 c1833-4 (Link to this contribution) I am firmly opposed to a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. The matter should be decided by Parliament...
Lord Bruce of Bennachie | 472 c1842;472 c1840 (Link to this contribution) No. Perhaps I should not be surprised by the way in which the hon. Lady’s relationship with, and att...
Subjects
European Union
European communities
Referendums
Parliament
Treaties
Treaty of Lisbon
Legislation
European Union (Amendment) Bill 2007-08
Link
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