UK Parliament / Open data

Armed Forces Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 22 May 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Watson of Wyre Forest. The answering member was Gerald Howarth.
Armed Forces Bill. Motion on order of clauses to be considered in Committee. Agreed to on question (formal). Committee stage. Clauses 1-378 agreed to, clauses 294 and 323 as amended. Schedules 1-17 agreed to, schedules 16 and 17 as amended. Bill reported with amendments. Report stage (formal). Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
446 c1203-300 
Session
2005-06
Department
Ministry of Defence
Legislative stage
Committee stage, Third reading and Report stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Armed Forces Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 94-EN also published.
Wednesday, 30 November 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Jeremy Corbyn | 446 c1228 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is missing the point. The decision to deploy British troops is made under the roy...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1283 (Link to this contribution) I did not suggest that the clause would prevent service police from consulting COs, but that it says...

Show all contributions (295)
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1280 (Link to this contribution) That concern is obviously not borne out by the hon. Member for Salisbury. The Coldstream Guards to w...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I am rather confused. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a big difference between people wh...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) It is not for me to speak about the legality of Adolf Hitler’s war, but it is certainly for me to st...
Julian Lewis | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) This is the second time that the Nuremberg law has come up, and the hon. Gentleman ought to bear in ...
Chris Bryant | 446 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a great honour to follow the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer). I am sure that all hon. ...
Kelvin Hopkins | 446 c1222 (Link to this contribution) Why has my hon. Friend not mentioned paragraph (b) of subsection (3)—"““operations outside the Briti...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) But the point that I have been trying to make concerns the circumstances in which someone should be ...
Chris Bryant | 446 c1222-3 (Link to this contribution) I am absolutely sure that my hon. Friend is right in that, but the Bill is not the place to have tha...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1223 (Link to this contribution) The Bill benchmarks draconian penalties for going absent without leave, which could occur in accorda...
Chris Bryant | 446 c1222 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether my hon. Friend has visited our forces in Bosnia, but if he did so, he would se...
Jeremy Corbyn | 446 c1222 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a huge debate, especially among military families who have ...
Sarah McCarthy-Fry | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that the Bill does not refer to active operations, but subsection (3) states...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) The Bill does not say what people hope it says. It refers to life imprisonment for avoiding a servic...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) We heard earlier the remarkable assertion that it would be impossible for this country ever to engag...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I will put the same question to the hon. Gentleman as I put to my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) If I were to become a Defence Minister, it would not be in the UK. My imperialist ambitions are very...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1224 (Link to this contribution) It could be. [Interruption.] Or Rockall. Labour gave that away in one of their first actions on the ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry. It obviously made a great impression on the hon. Gentleman. I was asking what would happ...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that there would not be a penalty, but I am saying that there would be no ultimate p...
Robert Flello | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) As part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I recently had the opportunity to take part in a d...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1218 (Link to this contribution) That was a very eloquent rant, but Kofi Annan said that the war was illegal, as have many other inte...
Sion Simon | 446 c1218 (Link to this contribution) Is not the point that my hon. Friend keeps making entirely oxymoronic? Is it not obvious that it wil...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1217-8 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend says from a sedentary position, that could easily be the Americans in many cases. ...
Chris Bryant | 446 c1217 (Link to this contribution) Except when they are the Americans.
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1217 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend does not want to read clause 367, which contains the tight definition of an enemy,...
Jeremy Corbyn | 446 c1216-7 (Link to this contribution) I was interested in my hon. Friend’s point about legality. If, for example, someone had deserted in ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1217 (Link to this contribution) In a sense, the point is made. In an earlier intervention, I made the point that international law i...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for letting me in. We do define what an enemy is. Clause 367 states that anyo...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1216 (Link to this contribution) Let me now—[Interruption.] I have two issues running at the same time here. I apologise to the Minis...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1216 (Link to this contribution) That deals with a mutiny, where people are getting together. I am talking about people exercising th...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Subsection 3(c) has the potential to enshrine an illegal occupation. People should exercise, and hav...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Order. I have already ruled that that is out of order. Will the hon. Gentleman please address his re...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I just wish to point out that under clause 8(4), anyone who intended to avoid service—when on releva...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1219-20 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen); we are used ...
Paul Keetch | 446 c1218 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman should make a distinction between the legality or otherwise of the a...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1219 (Link to this contribution) There are a number of very serious points—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Order. We are now going outside the scope of the amendments. Once again, I ask hon. Members to addre...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Let me answer the hon. Gentleman’s point briefly. As has been said, a good many illegal acts are goi...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1218 (Link to this contribution) Order. I think that we are going wide of the amendments.
Harry Cohen | 446 c1218 (Link to this contribution) I shall go straight back to the point, Mrs. Heal. I was saying that I agreed with my hon. Friend the...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Just for clarification, these decisions will not be made by the military, but by the independent leg...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1213-4 (Link to this contribution) That is amazing because, if they were independent legal authorities, we would not have a court marti...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for making my first day at the office so welcoming. I should remind him that ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1213 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that this will not be for the Ministry of Defence; I would not expect Ministers to mak...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1214 (Link to this contribution) In a nightmare scenario for the MOD, in which my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead is a...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1214 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, but many people are effectively ““deserting”” when they are in this country and do no...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1213 (Link to this contribution) That is right. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington is seeking to get rid of that huge...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1213 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8 does not only cover desertion in the heat of battle, because subsection (2) states:"““For t...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) The clause provides for life, and there is an amendment that would delete that. He either supports t...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) Those circumstances are dealt with elsewhere in the Bill—[Hon. Members: ““No, they are not.””] Yes, ...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman explain to the Committee where in the Bill this issue is dealt with? I have ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that it is in clause 12, and presumably clause 13 as well.
Harry Cohen | 446 c1215-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. That clause deals with misconduct on operations. We do not need the provision in clause 8 as...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with many of the issues that the hon. Gentleman takes up, but he has...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1214-5 (Link to this contribution) First, I am grateful not to be a Minister in the MOD. I never had any expectation of being so. Howev...
Robert Flello | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) The recent case of the flight lieutenant has been used as an example of why a life sentence is inapp...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and my colleagues have just whispered to me that such acti...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1231 (Link to this contribution) True, but I want to deal with issues that we need to view as distinct segments. One concerns whether...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1231 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, but I am saying that the argument about a war being legal just because we say it is l...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1231 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that we are going down a long avenue of irrelevance here? Thi...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1231-2 (Link to this contribution) My maximum at this point just removes life imprisonment. I have no doubt that if the Committee agree...
Bob Russell | 446 c1231 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that his maximum would be two years, and thus with good behaviour it...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1232 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has made the case for a graduated tariff. I am questioning the presumption that the r...
Sion Simon | 446 c1232 (Link to this contribution) Whether one takes that point, surely the problem is that the amendment does not account for the othe...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1232-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not have a problem with a serious tariff. My problem is that the Bill states that the maximum s...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1232 (Link to this contribution) At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the hon. Gentleman has neglected to understand that we ...
Sarah McCarthy-Fry | 446 c1233 (Link to this contribution) Notwithstanding my hon. Friend’s argument, with which I disagree, he has admitted that his amendment...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1234 (Link to this contribution) The definitions are very important. Refusal to go on active service—that is, refusing an order—carri...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1233-4 (Link to this contribution) Let me come back to the hon. Gentleman with the current information about penalties and figures. As ...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1233 (Link to this contribution) Sadly, poorly thought through legislation is increasingly driven through this House, which leaves an...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1235 (Link to this contribution) I am tempted to start my reply, but I am conscious that another hon. Friend wants to intervene, so I...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1234-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall shortly lose the will to live. My hon. Friend keeps trying to move the goalposts. On whether...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1234 (Link to this contribution) I confess that we have had some interesting discussions on the Labour Benches about the interpretati...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1235 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to be trapped into trying to define the point at which an action is legal or illegal, ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1235 (Link to this contribution) I want to pick up the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and my hon. F...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) As one of the supporters of the amendment, I was just looking back through the notes of my speech an...
Sion Simon | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) This sovereign Parliament having voted to take that action, it becomes, as far as I am concerned, a ...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I am listening with great interest to the hon. Gentleman, who is making some profound points. Does h...
Sion Simon | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that I mentioned the hon. Member for the Western Isles, if I may call him that, in my...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1225-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I am going to press on. While we have a system that imposes a maximum penalty of two years for ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Sion Simon | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. There is a system, and it is of long standing. The hon. Gentleman speaks of it with knowled...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1228 (Link to this contribution) No one in the international community has made the case that the action taken, with which I did not ...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1228 (Link to this contribution) May I first, for the benefit of the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones), clarify the position a...
Sion Simon | 446 c1231 (Link to this contribution) That is true of amendment No. 9, but not of amendment No. 8, which specifically concerns the nature ...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1230-1 (Link to this contribution) May I try and unravel some of the confusion that has run through the debate? The debate on amendment...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1230 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely, but the hon. Gentleman also said that the real heroes will be those who chose to e...
John McDonnell | 446 c1230 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will recall that throughout my speech I paid tribute to the servicemen who are cu...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1229-30 (Link to this contribution) That sounds very good, but the hon. Gentleman is arguing for an excessive sentence—life—for people w...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1229 (Link to this contribution) If my children’s lives were on the line as the result of an act of cowardice and desertion by one of...
Pete Wishart | 446 c1228-9 (Link to this contribution) I have no reason to doubt what the hon. Gentleman said about the many people who have been charged a...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I was about to remind the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier) that the discussion of detail com...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1208-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Mrs Heal. I was giving the example of someone who deserted without seeing action at all, alt...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1210 (Link to this contribution) I disagree. The measure does not say the sentence for desertion will automatically be life imprisonm...
Robert Flello | 446 c1210 (Link to this contribution) In conflict, if a platoon were reliant on an individual to hold a particular post and that individua...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1209-10 (Link to this contribution) Four months, I am reminded, and some of us were more assiduous than others—[Interruption.] My hon. F...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1210 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a difference between a legal occupation and an illegal occup...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1210 (Link to this contribution) That is an argument that can be had around a specific campaign such as the one in Iraq. I am gratefu...
John McDonnell | 446 c1210 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend served long and hard on the Committee so he knows the Bill inside out, poor man. The ...
Nick Harvey | 446 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right on that particular issue. It is just as well that the amendment will not...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1212 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill benchmarks life imprisonment in statute?
Nick Harvey | 446 c1211 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on the measured way in whic...
John McDonnell | 446 c1211 (Link to this contribution) The Bill was presented as allowing the updating of service law, which gives us the opportunity to ri...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1210-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend’s point goes to the kernel of the argument. In the armed forces the ultimate sanction...
Nick Harvey | 446 c1212 (Link to this contribution) We are being presented with two options—one is a maximum of two years, and the other is a maximum of...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1212 (Link to this contribution) Well, I will give him an example of where he is fence-sitting. Clause 8 provides for a life sentence...
Nick Harvey | 446 c1212 (Link to this contribution) No; the Bill does not change the position. Existing statute allows a sentence of up to life imprison...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1212 (Link to this contribution) That was a very interesting contribution by the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), and a typ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1203 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. We have some very quirky practices in the House, one of which has br...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1203 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mrs. Heal. The Bill was not timetabled. It is an incredibly complex ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that. Thank you, Mrs. Heal
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) Order. If the hon. Gentleman will take his seat, I think that I will be able to help him. If he care...
John McDonnell | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 14, leave out from ‘property;' to the end of line 15....
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That the Bill be considered in the following order, namely, Clauses 1 to 53, Schedule...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) You have been given incorrect—
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1204 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern, but I am afraid that I cannot give him that permission. T...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1207-8 (Link to this contribution) May I clarify something for my hon. Friend? Refusal to take part is not desertion, but it may give r...
John McDonnell | 446 c1207 (Link to this contribution) Individual members of a voluntary, professional military service have the right as citizens to exerc...
Adam Ingram | 446 c1207 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in my hon. Friend’s argument. Would he apply the same logic to Kosovo, Sierra Leone ...
John McDonnell | 446 c1207 (Link to this contribution) That is a valid point. The lack of definition of an enemy has enticed the Government to include in c...
Andrew Mackinlay | 446 c1208 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mrs. Heal. I am showing uncharacteristic restraint, as the hon. Gentleman is ta...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I did not intend to speak in this debate, so I shall be brief in my support of the Government’s prop...
John McDonnell | 446 c1208 (Link to this contribution) Desertion is defined in the Bill as absence without leave. We are threatening someone who refuses to...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1206-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and for his support for my point of order earlier, wh...
John McDonnell | 446 c1205-6 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely sympathise with my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen) about t...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1205 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 9, in page 5, line 18, leave out from ‘offe...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1278-9 (Link to this contribution) A powerful case has been put for each side of the argument. I intend to explain clause 116, and then...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1278 (Link to this contribution) Of course. I apologise. I accept that he and his hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn are committed to ...
Adam Ingram | 446 c1278 (Link to this contribution) East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow.
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1277-8 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Time is marching on. I suspect that we will not be able to de...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1277 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. Several Members have put this issue in the wider context...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1277 (Link to this contribution) I will not do so now, as I am trying to describe something. In that film, we saw guards on a ship at...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1277 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1276-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely right that we saw the film, which raised sever...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1276 (Link to this contribution) I suggest that the Prime Minister give the hon. Gentleman a seat on the Front Bench as a prize for h...
Lord Touhig | 446 c1276 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Prime Minister deprived me of a seat on the Front Bench. I am, howe...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1276 (Link to this contribution) Is not this a great example of the innuendoes, half-truths and hearsay that the hon. Gentleman and L...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1273-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall not at this stage because the hon. Gentleman has quoted Lord Boyce enough and it is fair to ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1273 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1274-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. The facts prove him wrong. The commanding officer’s original...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1274 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, if the system for which the Bill provides was in place at the ti...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1271 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is not an exclusive club. It has to be an organisat...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1271 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. I am sure that his remarks are borne out by the hours of evidence that ...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1271-3 (Link to this contribution) We have had an interesting and good debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) broug...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1271 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree. Of course, this band of brothers, for want of a better phrase, does need support,...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1270-1 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not just about a level playing field but about, first, givi...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1290-1 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I am delighted and slightly relieved to st...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1291-2 (Link to this contribution) I share the hon. Gentleman’s disappointment. The matter is serious and will not go away at the end o...
Lembit Opik | 446 c1291 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to detain the Minister, but he will accept that the hon. Lady’s view is shared on a cr...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1291 (Link to this contribution) I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. She concerns herself in great detail with the Bill...
Joan Humble | 446 c1291 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend spoke a moment ago about going over old ground. May I ask him to cover some new groun...
Bob Russell | 446 c1296-8 (Link to this contribution) I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Mr. Touhig) for his past service as Under-Secretary. I ...
Joan Humble | 446 c1298-9 (Link to this contribution) Like other Members, I want to compliment both the former and current Minister and the whole team inv...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1292-4 (Link to this contribution) I join the Minister in thanking those who have contributed over the last four or five months to our ...
Lord Touhig | 446 c1294-6 (Link to this contribution) I know the Armed Forces Bill as an old friend, having taken it through its Committee stages with a n...
Jim Dobbin | 446 c1299 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend aware that my constituent, Norma Langford, whose son, Corporal Ian Holt, died in B...
Sarah McCarthy-Fry | 446 c1299-300 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Minister to his new role. I think that, given his performance today, he will be a form...
Joan Humble | 446 c1299 (Link to this contribution) As chair of the all-party group on Army deaths, I have met my hon. Friend’s constituent when she has...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1279-80 (Link to this contribution) I, too, visited the Coldstream Guards, and undertook other such visits relating to the Bill with the...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1279 (Link to this contribution) The Coldstream Guards were based in Aldershot until last year, and they returned from Iraq after a d...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1282 (Link to this contribution) One benefit of these proceedings is that all those comments are being written into the record, but I...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1281 (Link to this contribution) We are now in a much more litigious era, with a well briefed enemy who is clever at working out fres...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1281-2 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument—he has made it on three or four occasions. I shall try to...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1280 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) quoted the survey leaked by The Sunday Telegra...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1280-1 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will know that I cannot comment on that survey. I have not seen it and, if it was...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1280 (Link to this contribution) The only example that I have seen of someone being prepared to go on the record on this issue is Lor...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1282 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has generously answered my point as far as it goes. I am grateful for his indication th...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1282 (Link to this contribution) There is no need to include such a provision, as I shall explain. It is inconceivable that a command...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1283 (Link to this contribution) Let me explain what currently happens. The clause will not prevent any service police from consultin...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1282-3 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I would rather not be drawn into discussion of the case of Tr...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1283 (Link to this contribution) I made it clear at the outset, as did my hon. Friends, that the clause goes to the heart of the Bill...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1284 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am not clear whether that was an intervention.
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1284 (Link to this contribution) Order. Has the Minister finished his contribution?
Alan Simpson | 446 c1235-6 (Link to this contribution) The notes say that it is three years. In Germany, desertion is punishable by up to five years’ impr...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1237 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says from a sedentary position that the nature of the fire is red on red.
Bob Russell | 446 c1237 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman has welcomed the new Minister, will he join me in paying tribute to the previo...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1236-7 (Link to this contribution) We have debated this matter for about an hour and a half, and I am bound to say that Eric Forth woul...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1236 (Link to this contribution) Clause 8 does not represent an improvement on the French system. It will mean that officers serving ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1236 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly what the Bill is doing. At the moment, the maximum penalty for desertion is life imp...
Alan Simpson | 446 c1236 (Link to this contribution) I would be happy for the Government to come back with a proposal for an improvement on the French sy...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1237-9 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who represents another impo...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1239 (Link to this contribution) Whatever his reasons were, he took an appropriate course of action that was open to him and ceased t...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1239 (Link to this contribution) On a small point, Ben Griffin’s words and reasons were:"““I didn’t join the British Army to conduct ...
Nick Harvey | 446 c1242 (Link to this contribution) I said at the start of the debate that in almost no circumstances could I envisage life imprisonment...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1239 (Link to this contribution) Ben Griffin also told The Sunday Telegraph that he had witnessed dozens of illegal acts by US fighte...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1239-40 (Link to this contribution) There is a whole system of military law that is designed to ensure that those who break the law in t...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1240-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth) for his kind words. I must say that when I walke...
John McDonnell | 446 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) I was expecting a brief debate, as clause 8 is one of nearly 300 clauses, but I am pleased with the ...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1247 (Link to this contribution) We have it from the lips of the Secretary of State so I hope that message will go out to all RAF pil...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1247 (Link to this contribution) I want to raise only a small technical point that has arisen since our lengthy discussions in the Se...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1247 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I can assure my hon. Friend that I am about to speak at greater length about the Army Air Co...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1248 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for his eagle-eyed egalitarianism. Perhaps I could describe the clause, w...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1248 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that sympathetic view. He said that in addition to the annoyance t...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1248-9 (Link to this contribution) The clause deals with the inaccurate certification of equipment. We are concerned that the Governmen...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1249 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I read the transcript of that debate, and it is something of an ankle pass. Let me describe the...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I take on board what has been said by the hon. Member for Aldershot. I read the transcript of the de...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1250-1 (Link to this contribution) Clause 54 relates to some of the other clauses that we have dealt with, but it gives me the opportun...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for doing that, and on that basis, I am happy not to push the clause t...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1251 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Sir Michael. I have listened very carefully to my hon. Friend. May I ask for yo...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1251 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman echoes my own thoughts. The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Harry Cohen) is ...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1251-2 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about"““Charges which may be heard summarily only with permission or by senior officer”...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1252 (Link to this contribution) I am speaking to clause 54, as I said at the outset, but I have said my piece. The matter was not ra...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1255 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman says, Lord Boyce has spoken in another place about the legal entrapment of our...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1255-6 (Link to this contribution) I will give the Committee an example now. I have the greatest respect for the hon. Gentleman who, as...
Harry Cohen | 446 c1252 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I am. Question put and agreed to. Clause 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 55 to...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1252-5 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to speak to the clause because it raises issues that go to the heart of th...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1252 (Link to this contribution) Let me describe what the clause does before I try to answer my hon. Friend’s many specific points. T...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1252 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr. Cohen) content?
Julian Brazier | 446 c1258 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has read the explanatory notes. As the clause is quite complicat...
Lord Touhig | 446 c1257 (Link to this contribution) I remember the questioning that my hon. Friend pursued in Committee. Does he remember when he presse...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1256-7 (Link to this contribution) I support clause 116, the matter having been rehashed for many hours in Committee. I usually listen ...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1259 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in the views of the hon. Gentleman, whose sound Nottinghamshire logic shines through...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1259 (Link to this contribution) I defer to the hon. Gentleman’s experience, but that is best practice. There may be cases in which t...
Sarah McCarthy-Fry | 446 c1259 (Link to this contribution) I concur that on our visits it was plain that this was not something about which commanding officers...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1259 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The measure allows the commanding officer, in certain cases, to su...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1258 (Link to this contribution) There is no excuse for delay either in a military court martial or in a civil court of law, but I di...
David Burrowes | 446 c1258 (Link to this contribution) I know that the hon. Gentleman would wish to take an evidence-based approach. Where is the evidence ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1258-9 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is about updating our laws. The year 2006 is very different from 1955. Today, we are far mo...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is not correct. As I understand it, the commanding officer could ...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that the commanding officer would be able to submit evidence. I accept that ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) I shall read paragraph 50 of the report to which the hon. Gentleman agreed:"““Lord Boyce advocated a...
Lord Touhig | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) In a debate in the Select Committee, I told the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth):"““Written g...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) I think that it was in the evidence that we took, and it was one of the recommendations in the final...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made an assertion that the commanding officer may make representations. Can h...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1261 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that safeguards have been stripped away because, as I have said, we are bolstering an...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1261-2 (Link to this contribution) I forgot my manners earlier in failing both to welcome the Under-Secretary and to congratulate him o...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1260 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that intervention, which clarifies the position. The commanding officer will not b...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1261 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been generous in giving way, but that simply is not good enough. We have stri...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1262-3 (Link to this contribution) That is an extremely good intervention and a fair one. The commanding officer does not always need t...
Sion Simon | 446 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for sharing with the House his experience, which is genuinely insightful....
Mike Hancock | 446 c1263 (Link to this contribution) Hon. Members are right to recognise the hon. Gentleman’s experience and the usefulness of it. Is he ...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1263 (Link to this contribution) Again, that is an excellent intervention. The Trooper Williams case underlines it. I take the point...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1263 (Link to this contribution) I am still trying to follow the hon. Gentleman’s logic. If, in his experience, to which I defer, and...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1263 (Link to this contribution) The problem is simple. The commanding officer must have the power to say, ““No. There is no case to ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1263 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has just proved my point. Is he suggesting that in a very serious case, the judge...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1263-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course commanding officers are no angels. Of course their judgment is faulty. The problem will no...
Sarah McCarthy-Fry | 446 c1264 (Link to this contribution) I want to pick up on the hon. Gentleman’s point that Trooper Williams looked to his commanding offic...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1264 (Link to this contribution) I agree. This sounds like a snap decision, but it is not. It will not be the sort of decision that t...
Sion Simon | 446 c1264-5 (Link to this contribution) Again in a spirit of genuine inquiry, can the hon. Gentleman give a concrete example of a case where...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1265 (Link to this contribution) I cannot, but I will hypothesise. Serving at a generally lower tempo of operations than what is goin...
Sion Simon | 446 c1267 (Link to this contribution) That is anachronistic and unrealistic. The hon. Member for Newark has said that the commanding offic...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1267 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newark has said, however,...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1267 (Link to this contribution) That is a burden that commanding officers are determined they should keep. They understand more than...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1265-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a hard question to answer, but I am doing my best to answer it as honestly as I can. I have ne...
Lord Touhig | 446 c1265 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made an important contribution to the debate throughout the day from his expe...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1266-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman that society has become much more litigious, which is sad, but claus...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1266 (Link to this contribution) As is the way of things, my points have been eloquently made by my hon. Friends the Members for Cant...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1265 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has not quite understood me. What I am saying is that in a high ...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1265 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman seriously suggesting that if, in the heat of battle, someone under his command...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1269-70 (Link to this contribution) I cannot imagine any set of circumstances in which a soldier, or any other service personnel member,...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1269 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I served together for a long time on the Defence Committee, and I know of his...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1269 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised by the way in which the debate has gone, because hon. Members have not read the intro...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1268-9 (Link to this contribution) I could go into the case of Private Ian Thain, with whom I served in Northern Ireland, which has hau...
Julian Brazier | 446 c1268 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has been confronted with the ridiculous example of someone who murdered an old lady, ...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1268 (Link to this contribution) In his former position, the hon. Gentleman tried to move towards the view advanced by my hon. Friend...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1268 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being unrealistic. He cannot suggest that the SIB would be not involved in suc...
Sion Simon | 446 c1267-8 (Link to this contribution) That is a false prospectus. The hon. Gentleman has said that there cannot be a situation in which th...
Lord Benyon | 446 c1267 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. I never rose to the rank or grandeur of my hon. Friend, and my experience of the armed f...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1216 (Link to this contribution) I want to help my hon. Friend in regard to clause 2, which deals with misconduct. He says that subse...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 446 c1203 (Link to this contribution) Order. I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but I must remind him that the Bill was...
Lord Watson of Wyre Forest | 446 c1279 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I will have to draw different conclusions from the conversations that we have...
Paul Keetch | 446 c1214 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I opposed the war. I spoke in almost all the debates about it and was contact...
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 446 c1225 (Link to this contribution) And subsection (2) states:"““a person deserts if … he intends to avoid any particular service or kin...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1280 (Link to this contribution) I think that there has been a slight misunderstanding. There is no dispute about the nature of the r...
John McDonnell | 446 c1243 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish this point. In human rights legislation, we require individual soldiers to exercise th...
Gerald Howarth | 446 c1249-50 (Link to this contribution) There is a hint of complacency in that answer, especially as I raised the issue of missile technolog...
Patrick Mercer | 446 c1267 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that to be in command is a huge privilege? It is a burden that is gladly t...
Jeremy Corbyn | 446 c1227 (Link to this contribution) How can my hon. Friend possibly say that a nation cannot go to war illegally? There was no outside a...
Sion Simon | 446 c1226 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, Eas...
John McDonnell | 446 c1242 (Link to this contribution) Best to end when one is winning. The message for the Government is that a significant body of Membe...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1257 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention. I totally agree with what he has said. Lord B...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1233 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has mentioned our European partners. Those among our European partners who are tr...
Mike Hancock | 446 c1230 (Link to this contribution) Once again, the hon. Gentleman is trying to confuse the Committee—but it is he who is wholly confuse...
Lord Beamish | 446 c1209 (Link to this contribution) Having spent three months on the Bill—
Lord Touhig | 446 c1268 (Link to this contribution) I recognise the concerns raised by Conservative Members. When the hon. Member for Aldershot raised t...
Subjects
Disciplinary proceedings
Children
Discipline
Crime
Armed forces
Age
Army
Deployment
Aircraft
Courts martial
Air force
Desertion
Certification
Custodial treatment
Defence equipment
Nuisance
Prosecutions
Military police
Officers
Navy
Sentencing
Legislation
Armed Forces Bill 2005-06
Link
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