Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 7 February 2012, in the House of Lords.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Committee stage eighth day. Clauses 61 to 82 agreed to, with clause 68 agreed to as amended. Schedules 9 and 10 agreed to.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

735 c130-42, 152-201, 216-50

Session

2010-12

Department

Ministry of Justice
Committee of the Whole House (HL)

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 109-EN also published.
Thursday, 3 November 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) 177AA: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause— ““Community supervision requirement for off...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c217-9 (Link to this contribution) Since my noble friend Lord Adebowale is not in his place and as I have my name to the amendment, I h...

Show all contributions (153)

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c201 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for having responded in that way, for offering to meet me and work thr...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c224 (Link to this contribution) 177B: Clause 73, page 53, line 9, at beginning insert— ““( ) In section 16(1) of the Powers of Crimi...

Baroness Northover | 735 c223 (Link to this contribution) We are acutely aware of the cost of keeping people in prison. Obviously it is not only for cost reas...

Lord Adebowale | 735 c223-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure that that is the answer. Like many noble Lords who have amendments to this Bill,...

Baroness Northover | 735 c222-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lords for their amendment. Young adult offenders are a particularly diff...

Lord Adebowale | 735 c223 (Link to this contribution) Has there been any cost comparison between the IAC model and the cost of keeping a young person in p...

Lord Adebowale | 735 c219-21 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to Amendment 177AA and I am particularly gratef...

Lord Bach | 735 c221-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the advantages of these debates is that we will hear proposals for new ways to dive...

Baroness Jenkin of Kennington | 735 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to the amendments and to support the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c192-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, support the amendment, which was moved so ably by the noble Baroness, who has done...

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town | 735 c194-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I start by giving the apologies of my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, whose name ...

Lord Bach | 735 c196-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the problems of drugs in this country are always in the news. The arguments about whether ...

Baroness Northover | 735 c198-200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in responding to these amendments I am aware that these proposals were discussed previousl...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c200-1 (Link to this contribution) I will be grateful if the Minister will tell the Committee under exactly which parts of current legi...

Baroness Northover | 735 c201 (Link to this contribution) I have to dispute what the noble Baroness says about downgrading the importance of domestic violence...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c195 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must admit that when I started to listen to this short and interesting debate, I was som...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c195 (Link to this contribution) It may be helpful if I respond briefly to the question about drugs. Drugs can be tested using this m...

Baroness Newlove | 735 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had no intention of speaking in this debate but having listened to noble Lords, especial...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 735 c196 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not want to detain the Committee for long partly because I agree with virtually every...

Lord Beecham | 735 c184 (Link to this contribution) Wherein lies the imaginative use of these orders? Where is the imagination?

Baroness Northover | 735 c184 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 would enable a court to impose longer curfew requirements as part of a c...

Baroness Northover | 735 c184-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps we should leave that to those who are curfewed. For example, a curfew period of 16 hours wil...

Baroness Northover | 735 c186 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendments in this group are minor, technical amendments to ensure that the extent of ...

Lord Bach | 735 c186 (Link to this contribution) Whenever I was sitting where the noble Baroness is sitting now and I began my speech on government a...

Baroness Northover | 735 c186 (Link to this contribution) 177ZB: Clause 68, page 51, line 3, after ““country”” insert ““or territory””

Lord Avebury | 735 c190-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, anyone who has spent time in an accident and emergency department on a weekend evening wil...

Baroness Northover | 735 c186 (Link to this contribution) 177ZC: Clause 68, page 51, line 5, after first ““country”” insert ““or territory”” 177ZD: Clause 6...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) 177A: After Clause 71, insert the following new Clause— ““Alcohol monitoring requirement (1) After s...

Lord Avebury | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) This is from 2008.

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend clearly did not understand what I was suggesting: that it is, to put it plainly, sen...

Baroness Northover | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) I assure my noble friend that in fact I understood him very clearly the first time. I asked, as this...

Lord Avebury | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) May I ask my noble friend what may be a naive question? If the provision to which this is attached h...

Baroness Northover | 735 c178 (Link to this contribution) In answer to my noble friend, I expect that it will be necessary that this is in legislation, wherea...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c178 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response and intrigued with the points made by the ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c178-81 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clauses 67 and 75 refer to the maximum extension of curfews from 12 hours to 16, and from ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c181-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I put my name to the stand part debate for exactly the reasons that the noble Baroness, La...

Baroness Stern | 735 c182 (Link to this contribution) I support the proposal that the clauses should not stand part of the Bill and the comments of the pr...

Lord Beecham | 735 c182-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I strongly endorse the proposal of the noble Baroness that both clauses should be deleted ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c173 (Link to this contribution) I shall be very brief. Sub-paragraph (1)(c) of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 8 to the Criminal Justice Act...

Lord Bach | 735 c173 (Link to this contribution) This is an important point that the noble Lord is making, but I wonder whether he is right in saying...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c173 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that, and regard it as very remiss of me for not having mentioned it ear...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c173 (Link to this contribution) 176A: Clause 63, page 47, line 6, at end insert— ““(c) omit sub-paragraph (c)””

Baroness Northover | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is exactly what I asked and I was assured that in fact the Government wanted to keep ...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend will recall that it was part of the vaunt of the coalition that the statute book wou...

Baroness Northover | 735 c176 (Link to this contribution) I heard what the noble Lord said and was very interested in the points that he made. Perhaps it is b...

Lord Bach | 735 c176 (Link to this contribution) I follow the noble Baroness’s argument, which she has made very clearly. Indeed, I was not aware tha...

Baroness Northover | 735 c175-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for his support on this, the first group of amendments ...

Lord Bach | 735 c174-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in many of his amendments I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and I hope to do s...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c174 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bach. I am speaking about the breach, and I will come to ...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c171 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I would be interested if the Minister could encourage the presiding judges of each circuit...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c170 (Link to this contribution) I do not quite follow my noble friend’s reasoned argumentation, because Amendment 176ZB, put forward...

Lord McNally | 735 c170 (Link to this contribution) That is why the amendment is not necessary. Since a number of noble Lords had referred to the damagi...

Lord Dholakia | 735 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would the Minister seriously consider the suggestion by my noble friend Lady Linklater abo...

Lord McNally | 735 c171 (Link to this contribution) If there is anybody I take even more notice of in these matters than my noble friend Lady Linklater,...

Lord McNally | 735 c172 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Linklater was on the point about community sentences made by the noble Lords, L...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c172 (Link to this contribution) I certainly think that community sentences can be reviewed and beefed up in some way. We have very c...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c173 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being here for the earlier part of the debate. Would my noble friend agree that ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this extraordinarily interesting and well i...

Lord McNally | 735 c171 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure what my powers are in instructing, advising or making requests of presiding judges. I ...

Lord Bach | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is being a bit unfair towards Charles Dickens himself. I may be wrong about this, but...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) I shall add that he was saying it in the context of a married woman, who had no separate identity in...

Lord Beecham | 735 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I think that that is right, and indeed the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said very much the sa...

Lord McNally | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all those who have contributed to this debate. It has been an e...

Lord Phillips of Sudbury | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) Hear, hear!

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) I do not know if my noble friend is agreeing with the proposition, but in these more enlightened day...

Lord McNally | 735 c167 (Link to this contribution) I live and learn. I shall make the point, though, that the phrase, ““The law is an ass””, is used mo...

Lord McNally | 735 c168-70 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that clarification, because I think that such meetings are important. When we disc...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c168 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could put the record straight. It is not that they have fallen into disuse, but that they ...

Lord McNally | 735 c167-8 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I started it, but in terms of the quality of the debate, to have a sitting magistrate and a for...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c158-9 (Link to this contribution) You are my dear. I have my hero here, so I can say that. I had better go on before I make any more s...

Lord Judd | 735 c159-61 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very glad to have been able to add my name to these amendments, and would like to say...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I, too, have added my name to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater....

Lord Woolf | 735 c162-3 (Link to this contribution) It is with great diffidence that I seek to say a few words as almost everything that can be said on ...

Lord Judd | 735 c163-4 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I might ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, a question. Does he agree that the villa...

Lord Woolf | 735 c164 (Link to this contribution) I would be bold beyond my own abilities to be bold if I were to try to attribute responsibility betw...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in this debate but it has been so important that I felt th...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c165 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, is of course correct. Magistrates already give their reasons...

Lord Woolf | 735 c165 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, does the noble Lord not think that the amendment clearly covers that case? It allows a sho...

Lord Faulks | 735 c166 (Link to this contribution) Although I accept the general points made by the noble Lord about the general undesirability of shor...

Lord Beecham | 735 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I defer to the huge wisdom and practical experience of all noble Lords who have spoken in ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c154 (Link to this contribution) 176ZAA: After Clause 61, insert the following new Clause— ““Awareness of sentencing options The Lord...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c154-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment would insert a new clause on the subject of awareness of sentencing options....

Lord Baker of Dorking | 735 c158 (Link to this contribution) Oh!

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c230 (Link to this contribution) 177DA: After Clause 78, insert the following new Clause— ““Youth rehabilitation order: restorative j...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c229-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed. The noble Baroness has encouraged remembrance of a...

Baroness Northover | 735 c228-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was very struck by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, dividing things between those which ...

Lord Bach | 735 c228 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, our time in government retreats into the mists of time day by day, month by month, and my ...

Lord Dholakia | 735 c228 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, was a Minister in the Ministry of Justice during the previous A...

Lord Bach | 735 c227-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I can be very short. These are amendments that appeal to us, too. Referral orders, which w...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c227 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have added my name to one of these amendments and I have great sympathy for what is prop...

Lord Judd | 735 c226-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply because this is a point on which he should ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c224-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 177C. These amendments are complementary to Amendment 177A...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c249 (Link to this contribution) What would the noble Lord say to the case of failure to surrender? It is very common in magistrates’...

Lord McNally | 735 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) They can be tried in their absence and of course they can be picked up and put into custody. We are ...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group of amendments seeks to address an opportunity to introduce restorative justice ...

Lord Woolf | 735 c231-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it may be appropriate if I speak now to Amendment 177DAA, which is in my name. Your Lordsh...

Baroness Northover | 735 c245-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened carefully to the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, in support ...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 735 c246-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for his support and for another cautionar...

Lord Bach | 735 c247-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall be as quick as I can. Clause 83 is one of the shortest clauses in the Bill. It sta...

Lord McNally | 735 c248-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, intimidation of witnesses is itself an offence, so one has to put these things into perspe...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c244-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is attached to this amendment. My neighbour’s wife was parking her car in the car...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 735 c242-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is a probing amendment supported by the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust—Z2K—and Citizens Advice....

Lord Bach | 735 c245 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, a powerful case has been made for this amendment in two powerful speeches from noble Lords...

Baroness Northover | 735 c241 (Link to this contribution) I refer noble Lords back to the concluding remarks that I made. I fully understand that amendments m...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c241 (Link to this contribution) I support the noble and learned Lord. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that it is very impor...

Baroness Lister of Burtersett | 735 c241-2 (Link to this contribution) 177DB: After Clause 81, insert the following new Clause— ““Enforcement (1) Where a magistrates’ cour...

Lord Woolf | 735 c241 (Link to this contribution) Taking into account what has just been said in coming to my conclusion, at this stage I beg leave to...

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall | 735 c240 (Link to this contribution) If the noble and learned Lord is proposing to continue with his speech, would he allow me to put the...

Lord Woolf | 735 c240-1 (Link to this contribution) I apologise—I should have given the Deputy Chairman that opportunity. Perhaps I may continue with wh...

Lord Woolf | 735 c240 (Link to this contribution) I was not intending to move this amendment, although I wanted to add one or two words to what has be...

Lord Woolf | 735 c240 (Link to this contribution) 177DAA: After Clause 78, insert the following new Clause— ““Enablement of courts to remand cases for...

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede | 735 c239 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. I particularly thank the noble and learn...

Baroness Northover | 735 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, where but in the Lords would we be having such a wonderful debate, run through with humani...

Lord Beecham | 735 c236-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister regaled us earlier with some literary allusions, and Dickens featured largely...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c234-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support these amendments but have one cautionary tale for the Government. Before that, I...

Lord Dholakia | 735 c233-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am delighted to lend my support to this amendment. I am in good and powerful company: th...

Lord Judd | 735 c232-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has just made is very important: th...

Lord Dholakia | 735 c141 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister consider the possibility of a code of practice on how such reports are produced an...

Lord McNally | 735 c141 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting and helpful intervention from my noble friend, which I will take away and con...

Lord Wigley | 735 c141-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister said in his opening remarks that he was in an unusual situation in that he wa...

Lord McNally | 735 c152-3 (Link to this contribution) 176ZZA: After Clause 61, insert the following new Clause— ““Sentencing where there is aggravation re...

Lord McNally | 735 c153 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Amendment 176ZZA deals with hate crime. Hate crime is abhorrent and the criminal justice s...

Lord Ramsbotham | 735 c153 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, some of the saddest cases that I found in prisons when I was inspecting them were of peopl...

Lord Beecham | 735 c154 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it took the good Lord seven days to create heaven and earth and it has taken the noble Lor...

Lord McNally | 735 c154 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I cannot imagine that actions such as he de...

Lord McNally | 735 c141 (Link to this contribution) Certainly, but the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, makes my point. There are responsibilities alrea...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c140 (Link to this contribution) I am concerned about the instructions given to probation officers who carry out pre-sentence reports...

Lord McNally | 735 c140 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with the noble Baroness. That was very much the thrust of the Corston report ...

Lord McNally | 735 c138-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this has been an extremely useful debate and one that has not necessarily followed previou...

Lord Beecham | 735 c137-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we on the opposition Benches support both amendments and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord...

Lord Judd | 735 c137 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must apologise for not having been in my place when the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was mov...

Lord Howarth of Newport | 735 c136-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I fully support the intentions of these amendments. I admired the speech by the noble Lord...

Lord Faulks | 735 c136 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, both these amendments are concerned to ensure that the court knows all that it needs to kn...

Lord McNally | 735 c140 (Link to this contribution) One of the reasons why I am always at a disadvantage when dealing with my noble friend is because he...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 735 c135-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I find myself very much in sympathy with the sentiments that lie behind both the amendment...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c133-4 (Link to this contribution) I rarely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, but I do on this occasion. I do not think that...

Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 735 c133 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is attached to the amendment. The points that my noble friend Lord Wigley has made...

Lord Clinton-Davis | 735 c134 (Link to this contribution) Was that not put before the court? If not, why not?

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c134 (Link to this contribution) I have some sympathy with Amendment 175. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, I was take...

Lord Wigley | 735 c130-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 175 I shall also speak to Amendment 176. I have been asked to do so by...

Lord Wigley | 735 c130 (Link to this contribution) 175: Clause 61, page 44, line 40, at end insert— ““( ) The court when requesting a pre-sentence repo...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 735 c134-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I seldom disagree with my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis. However, on this occasion I hav...

Lord Thomas of Gresford | 735 c134 (Link to this contribution) It was put before the court, and the request was made for an adjournment for a probation report to f...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c177 (Link to this contribution) No, this provision is from 2003 and it has not been brought into force for nine years. Is the right ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c172-3 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for that and for the clarification. It is very good news that that is being ...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c227 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to add briefly to what has been said for two reasons. The first is the growing conc...

Lord Carlile of Berriew | 735 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, bearing in mind the cautionary tale of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, I nevertheless, li...

Baroness Linklater of Butterstone | 735 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) I thank everybody who has participated in the debate. Consensus on this issue has broken out loudly ...

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff | 735 c187-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this set of amendments concerns an alcohol monitoring requirement and is modified from tho...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 735 c140 (Link to this contribution) Further to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, is it not the case—I will be g...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 735 c140 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, looking at public expenditure, sending a woman to prison and putting her children into car...

Subjects

Children

Abuse

Curfews

Alcoholic drinks

Bail

Alternatives to prison

Debt collection

Women

Domestic abuse

Harassment

Discrimination

Offenders

Mothers

Rehabilitation

Sentencing

Young people

Young offenders

Sexuality

Testing

Stalking

Community orders

Youth offending teams

Transgender people

Legislation

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12

Link

View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk