Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

I am grateful for that clarification, because I think that such meetings are important. When we discussed this matter previously, it was suggested that a bar to the effectiveness of the meetings might be that magistrates who engage with the work of probation trusts are unable to claim expenses to attend liaison or other meetings with probation. I am happy to say that Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service is already looking at, and plans to consult on, some of these issues relating to magistrates’ expenses. I suggest that a better approach, working with the Magistrates’ Association, Bench chairs and the senior judiciary, would be to come to a practical solution rather than create more statutory requirements There are arrangements for local liaison meetings, and I hope that what I have just said helps to plug some of the gaps that the noble Baroness just referred to. The arrangements are governed by a protocol issued by the senior presiding judge setting out the parameters for any discussions between magistrates and probation. A protocol exists because there is a need to ensure that there is no suggestion that sentencers have been influenced by probation priorities or resourcing decisions. The existing arrangements therefore allow for flexibility, with due propriety, as to what should be discussed. I am not aware of any particular problems with probation trusts supplying information to the judiciary. If any noble Lords are aware of any problems, I would be grateful for details which I could follow up. I certainly think that magistrates should be encouraged to visit both prisons and probation regularly and not just as part of their initial training. I am not aware of any obstacle to them doing so. I do not therefore consider that there is any need for a new statutory duty on the Lord Chancellor to make arrangements for magistrates to visit. Amendment 176ZB seeks to deal with the different issue of the use of short custodial sentences. The amendment would place a duty on courts to consider all alternatives before imposing a short custodial term. It would also require the court, if imposing a short custodial sentence, to explain why alternative sentences were not considered appropriate. I understand the intention behind the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, has argued, short custodial sentences can be less effective in tackling reoffending than community sentences. They can mean that an offender during their short time in prison loses their employment and accommodation, all of which is a hindrance to their rehabilitation. We are about to start a consultation on the effectiveness of community sentences. We are not simply pushing them as a replacement for prison but are hoping to provide sentencers with a much improved community sentence, offering a robust and credible punishment that will have the confidence of sentencers, victims and the public. Although I understand the points that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, made about the treatment of sentencing in some of our media, unless we have public confidence in non-custodial sentences we will have criticism of them. We have to win that public confidence. We will publish a consultation document shortly. We are also running payment-by-result pilots, looking at ways to support offenders on release from short custodial sentences. There are now shorter programmes on drug and alcohol treatment requirements as part of a community order. The Bill gives more discretion for dealing with breaches of orders; for example, allowing for fines for minor breaches. The system is therefore not as rigid as might be suggested. It must be clear that the Government have never advocated that short custodial sentences be not available to a court where the offence or the offender merits such a sentence; for example, where the offence is so serious that only a custodial sentence, even a short one, is justified or where an offender has a history of previous convictions or continued breaches of community orders. Like many noble Lords, I came to this issue initially with great suspicion of short sentences because of the inability to build into them any kind of rehabilitation content. However, it has been put to me on my travels and in this House that a short sentence sometimes gives a community respite from somebody who is making their life hell, and the clang of the prison door, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, may just straighten that person out. It has also been put to me that, in certain cases of persistent domestic violence, a custodial sentence may give a wife—usually—the chance to rebuild and reorganise her life. Therefore, although the case against short sentences is strong, we intend to retain them.