UK Parliament / Open data

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate on bills and Committee of the Whole House (HC) on Wednesday, 18 January 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Helen Jones. The answering member was Robert Neill.
Local Government Finance Bill. Committee stage (first day). Clause 1 (Local retention of non-domestic rates) considered with amendments negatived on division (246 to 316). Agreed on question. Schedule 1 (Local retention of non-domestic rates) considered with amendments negatived on division (232 to 318) and (228 to 318). Progress reported.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
538 c767-852 
Session
2010-12
Department
Department for Communities and Local Government
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Local Government Finance Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 265-EN also published.
Monday, 19 December 2011
Bills
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Helen Jones | 538 c767 (Link to this contribution) We have tabled these amendments because we are concerned about the way the Bill is being rushed thro...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c767 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 21, in clause 2, page 2, line 19...

Show all contributions (279)
Helen Jones | 538 c767 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 20, page 2, line 13, leave out '2013' and insert '2014'.
John Healey | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves on from the question of evidence, I do not want her to overlook the valu...
Lord Beamish | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that another possible motive for considering the Bill on the Floor of the ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c778-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Now, we see that the latest unemployment figure is nearly 7.8% for my constituency and nearl...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c779 (Link to this contribution) Is not one merit of pausing, delaying and taking stock of the changes that it would allow us to get ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) The Conservative party needs to learn lessons, because every time it has dabbled in local government...
Christopher Pincher | 538 c777 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that because there is uncertainty, the Bill should be delayed...
Lord Beamish | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) Ten out of ten to my right hon. Friend for picking that up.
Lord Beamish | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) Or perhaps minus one for being selective in his quotation. It is not the first time that the Conserv...
Lord Beamish | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but when the hon. Gentleman gets his briefing notes from Conservative central office or ...
Christopher Pincher | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) One fact that is absolutely undeniable is that Durham's business rate growth has been greater than t...
Lord Beamish | 538 c777 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I think you are chairing the Committee, Mr Amess, not a Liberal Democrat Member who ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c776 (Link to this contribution) I agree, and that uncertainty will be a problem not just because councils will not know what the reb...
Lord Beamish | 538 c776 (Link to this contribution) I do not know when the hon. Gentleman left local government, but we introduced three-year budgeting,...
Annette Brooke | 538 c777 (Link to this contribution) Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell the House whether he agrees with the principle of local author...
Lord Beamish | 538 c776-7 (Link to this contribution) No, and that is possibly because they will have to explain to northern councils why they are support...
Lord Beamish | 538 c776 (Link to this contribution) It is not at all. If the hon. Gentleman comes to my constituency and says that to the 21% of young p...
David Ward | 538 c777 (Link to this contribution) Speak to the amendments, will you?
Lord Beamish | 538 c777 (Link to this contribution) I think the hon. Lady represents Dorset, and there is a big difference between Dorset and parts of C...
David Ward | 538 c780-1 (Link to this contribution) I want to make just a few comments. I also consider it regrettable that the Committee stage is being...
Lord Beamish | 538 c780 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. Not for the first time, some of those chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully, we will...
Mark Tami | 538 c780 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend recall the piles of Liberal Democrat leaflets over many years calling for more a...
Lord Beamish | 538 c780 (Link to this contribution) But Portsmouth council received a year-on-year increase in its grant. It is interesting to hear a Li...
Mike Hancock | 538 c779 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as a member of Portsmouth city council and the executive member for economic d...
Lord Beamish | 538 c779 (Link to this contribution) Yes. That would have come out had we had proper pre-legislative scrutiny in Committee. It is the sam...
Helen Jones | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is right. We do have a lot of expertise across the House, but we need up-to-dat...
Graham Stringer | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) There is no procedure to do that in Committee of the whole House. Mr Bryant was taking the hon. Lady...
Helen Jones | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) If I may return to the subject of the amendment—
Nick Raynsford | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) Is it not very clear to my hon. Friend and to Government Members that there is something slightly od...
Helen Jones | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. In delivering local services, we are meant to be partn...
Chris Bryant | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend completely. We are only doing things in this way because the Government ...
Helen Jones | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, as usual, makes an interesting point, but he is tempting me to go beyond my remit an...
John Healey | 538 c770 (Link to this contribution) Before my hon. Friend moves off the question of procedure, does she agree that it is important that ...
Helen Jones | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who is a distinguished former leader of a local authority, makes a valid point. I ag...
George Hollingbery | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady remind the Committee how many months of extensive consultation the proposals for ...
Graham Stringer | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) Well, a lot more complicated. Does my hon. Friend agree that the last time a Conservative Government...
Helen Jones | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman should recognise that it is not much use having a consultation unless it informs ...
Helen Jones | 538 c769 (Link to this contribution) I am inundated. I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Ra...
Helen Jones | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. Although he is correct in saying that many of us...
Graham Stringer | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an important point. I have always found local government slightly more comp...
Helen Jones | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend. Since I have entered this House, I have learned th...
John Healey | 538 c775 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point that counters the assertion of the hon. Member for Poole (Mr...
Lord Beamish | 538 c775 (Link to this contribution) I agree totally with my right hon. Friend. The Bill also has the backdrop of councils having to intr...
George Hollingbery | 538 c775-6 (Link to this contribution) Having spent 11 years as a local councillor, I can reflect on the fact that in almost no year that I...
Lord Beamish | 538 c775 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend says, we had two hours on Second Reading for Back Benchers. What we will see...
Helen Jones | 538 c772-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right—there will be a capacity problem. Again, it would have been useful to hear w...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c773 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. She is considering the changes to the benefits scheme and ...
Helen Jones | 538 c772 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us of two things: that a Conservative Government natio...
Alison Seabeck | 538 c772 (Link to this contribution) There are only three, possibly four companies in the UK that are capable of producing the sort of so...
Helen Jones | 538 c771-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, although I have never known him to need any pushing to ta...
John McDonnell | 538 c772 (Link to this contribution) I feel a bit like Banquo's ghost in this debate because I was chair of finance on the Greater London...
Helen Jones | 538 c771 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point about our not seeing the draft regulations. It is difficult ...
Chris Bryant | 538 c771 (Link to this contribution) May I pull up my hon. Friend on one point? She referred to councils, but she means councils in Engla...
Helen Jones | 538 c771 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. As the Bill progresses, we will table amendments to attempt t...
Alison Seabeck | 538 c771 (Link to this contribution) As with so much legislation under this Government, whether in Committee or on the Floor of the House...
Helen Jones | 538 c770-1 (Link to this contribution) I will just make a little progress. Councils are expected to prepare for the changes that the Bill ...
Bill Esterson | 538 c771 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an incredibly important point, which cuts to the heart of the matter. The G...
Mark Field | 538 c812-3 (Link to this contribution) I will be coming to that later, and will be asking the Minister to clarify the matter. I would like...
Bill Esterson | 538 c812 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that the most wealthy local authorities, in te...
Mark Field | 538 c811-2 (Link to this contribution) There is a duty, although it will apply to potentially different sets of needs. I think one of the m...
Mark Field | 538 c811 (Link to this contribution) I am not entirely convinced that we are debating quite as revolutionary a change in local government...
Lord Watts | 538 c811 (Link to this contribution) Is not the real worry that unless a duty and responsibility are placed on Ministers to ensure that n...
Bill Esterson | 538 c810 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend makes the point about the new system trying to do too much, which goes back to ...
John Healey | 538 c810-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. One of the strengths of this debate, as shown by contributions from all par...
Lord Watts | 538 c809 (Link to this contribution) Is there not another issue here for the local authorities with the lowest business rates take? The G...
John Healey | 538 c809-10 (Link to this contribution) A number of colleagues have made that point, about local government in general and their local autho...
John Healey | 538 c809 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. She made that point powerfully last week in her Second Reading speech, whic...
Lord Beamish | 538 c816 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend also recognise that, for authorities such as South Tyneside council, which has n...
Helen Jones | 538 c816 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend, who has been a doughty champion of his constituency for many years, hits on ex...
Graham P Jones | 538 c813 (Link to this contribution) When authorities suffer a significant loss in business rate revenue, there will surely be a downward...
Mark Field | 538 c813-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has almost taken the words out of my mouth. Given the Government's commitment to ...
Helen Jones | 538 c814-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), who al...
Lord Watts | 538 c815 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that her point is one of the reasons that the Government do not want any i...
Helen Jones | 538 c815 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a valid point. When discussing the first group of amendments we said that the f...
Mark Field | 538 c815 (Link to this contribution) The local government finance system may not be quite as complicated as the Schleswig-Holstein questi...
Helen Jones | 538 c815-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, although I do not believe it is impossible to find independen...
George Howarth | 538 c816 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being able to be here for the earlier part of the debate. My hon. Friend knows m...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c818 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is talking about the growth in demand for council services that might occur in future...
Graham P Jones | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a very good point; there is a risk in the system. She mentioned Sunderland—...
Helen Jones | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) Indeed—my hon. Friend makes a very good point. Later, we will debate the provisions for safety nets ...
Graham P Jones | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is very generous in giving way and I am grateful for that. Let me extend that point a...
Helen Jones | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has hit on another flaw in the Bill and that is one reason for our complaining earlie...
Pat Glass | 538 c818 (Link to this contribution) Some years ago, I was an assistant director of education in the city of Sunderland and, despite its ...
Helen Jones | 538 c818 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend highlights the role of local authorities in achieving such gains. I believe that thos...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) Will not some of the disparities about which my hon. Friend is talking be exacerbated by the new sys...
Helen Jones | 538 c817-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend highlights a real risk of the Bill. All the modelling shows that the gap between rich...
Helen Jones | 538 c817 (Link to this contribution) Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one of the reasons for including the council tax ba...
Helen Jones | 538 c818-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes the valid point that the need for all these services varies across authorities;...
Bob Blackman | 538 c822 (Link to this contribution) I am listening with interest to the hon. Lady's explanation of the amendment. It suggests a whole se...
Helen Jones | 538 c820-2 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. My hon. Friend hits on a point that is important to local government as a whole. Local autho...
Bob Blackman | 538 c824-5 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Robertson. It is also an honour to...
George Hollingbery | 538 c819 (Link to this contribution) In the debate on Second Reading the shadow Secretary of State said that there were far too many poin...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c820 (Link to this contribution) Because many of the children's services that my hon. Friend mentioned are statutory, is it not the c...
Helen Jones | 538 c819-20 (Link to this contribution) I know the hon. Gentleman made a thoughtful speech on Second Reading, but he is wrong on both counts...
Bob Blackman | 538 c825 (Link to this contribution) The key is not that local authorities turn away business or prosperity; I am pointing out that there...
Lord Beamish | 538 c825 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Can he give a specific example of a council an...
Bob Blackman | 538 c825 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second. I will cite an example from the past few years, when the previous Gover...
Graham P Jones | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a self-defeating point, because he reminds the Committee of local strategic...
Bob Blackman | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) That did not happen only in deprived areas. I come from somewhere that had areas of great deprivatio...
Graham P Jones | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) I was talking about deprived areas.
Bob Blackman | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) I recognise that partnership working has almost been forced on local authorities. Some embraced it; ...
Graham P Jones | 538 c825-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way on that point. I realise that he is under a ...
Bob Blackman | 538 c825 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that councillors, council officers or local authorities of any persuasion deliberate...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c825 (Link to this contribution) I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying, because the implication is that local councill...
Clive Betts | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) There is a danger that we will get locked into a discussion in which we simply assume that the curre...
Bob Blackman | 538 c826 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but we have to consider cause and effect. I do not decry what the...
Clive Betts | 538 c827 (Link to this contribution) I intervene briefly on a factual point about what happened prior to the poll tax. Probably one of th...
Bob Blackman | 538 c827 (Link to this contribution) One of the key historical points is that local authorities used to set their own business rates, but...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c827 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has argued that incentives have not previously existed for local authorities to s...
Bob Blackman | 538 c827 (Link to this contribution) That, of course, is local democracy—if people want to pay higher taxes, they are welcome to do so. I...
Eric Ollerenshaw | 538 c828 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an important point. Was not one problem that there was almost an incentive ...
Bob Blackman | 538 c827-8 (Link to this contribution) I was actually the leader of Brent council, not Harrow, but I thank the hon. Lady for making that po...
Graham P Jones | 538 c828 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is being exceptionally generous in giving way. I thank him for that. He referred ...
Bob Blackman | 538 c828 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I return to my central argument, which is that there was a p...
Bob Blackman | 538 c828-9 (Link to this contribution) That is exactly my second point. In large parts of the country, particularly in suburbia, there has ...
Robert Neill | 538 c829 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I was smiling just to say how pleased we are to...
Clive Betts | 538 c829 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Minister is going to talk about the new, simplified system.
Clive Betts | 538 c829 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak about set-aside—the principle and the calculations—and, in particular, to draw atten...
Clive Betts | 538 c831-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we should look at the totality of the effects of the cuts on...
Graham P Jones | 538 c831 (Link to this contribution) On the same argument, would my hon. Friend add to that the housing benefit and council tax cuts, whi...
Clive Betts | 538 c829-31 (Link to this contribution) It is very nice of the Minister to say so, so I will smile in return. However, even he could not ris...
Clive Betts | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure, because how the set-aside ends up being used is fundamental. Will it simply go to the...
Lord Watts | 538 c837 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that if a deprived local authority gets less grant, one way or the other, it will...
Lord Beamish | 538 c838 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. When local businesses in my constituency want to expand, the first thing they will ask is, “...
Graham Stringer | 538 c838 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend was going a bit too far.
Graham P Jones | 538 c835-6 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend raises a crucial point that has not been mentioned—the role of local enterprise partn...
Lord Beamish | 538 c836 (Link to this contribution) Again, that is part of the contradiction in the Government's thinking and policy. As we have seen, L...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c836 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a superb point about the ability of local authorities to raise income from ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c836-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that, because I was about to discuss the baseline, as...
Graham Stringer | 538 c837 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that a local authority cannot possibly be incentivised to do more—most of ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c837 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree with my hon. Friend. It is a double whammy for local authorities, really, as even if...
George Hollingbery | 538 c833 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is being extremely generous with his time. A number o...
Clive Betts | 538 c834 (Link to this contribution) I think it would be considered so by a localist who wants it to be possible for money that is raised...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c833 (Link to this contribution) London Councils describes the existence of the central share beyond the current comprehensive spendi...
Clive Betts | 538 c833 (Link to this contribution) What the Government are doing is twofold, because two problems are being exacerbated by the set-asid...
Graham P Jones | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) Another Treasury or DCLG idea could be to use the set-aside to pay for wasteful weekly bin collectio...
Clive Betts | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) It could be; we are not sure where that funding is coming from. In future, a whole variety of things...
David Ward | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a crucial point. We discussed earlier the uncertainty around incentivisatio...
Clive Betts | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) We could, but I am not sure that Ministers will be able to give such an assurance. I say to the hon....
Robert Neill | 538 c839 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, he might like to reflect on this. He has been very vocal ab...
Lord Beamish | 538 c839-40 (Link to this contribution) The Minister does not quite understand. It is for me to ask him questions in interventions, not the ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c839 (Link to this contribution) Order. Mr Jones, please stop shouting across the Chamber. Either try and intervene or please be quie...
Robert Neill | 538 c839 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been very vocal, so I shall make a little progress and perhaps give way in du...
Lord Beamish | 538 c838 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very good point. In terms of economic development, local authorities might go...
Robert Neill | 538 c839 (Link to this contribution) The debate on these amendments has been lengthy and wide-ranging, and I shall do my best to do justi...
Lord Beamish | 538 c838 (Link to this contribution) A bit far, perhaps. The Government know exactly what they are doing. As I said on Second Reading, th...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c838 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that an unforeseen consequence of the Bill could be that local authorities...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c782 (Link to this contribution) I will reflect on the point that the right hon. Gentleman has made, and obviously those on the Treas...
John Healey | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr Amess. As the Chairman of this Committee, you will have noticed t...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
David Ward | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Let me just get through this. The Bill is not too complex. One of the arguments against having witn...
Graham Stringer | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Ward | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Let me just finish; I shall not be much longer. I understand all the measures that are built in, bu...
Mike Hancock | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr Amess. Is it not possible for the House itself to decide that it ...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) I hear what the hon. Gentleman has said, and I think that this is something that could be considered...
John Healey | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr Amess. Any written evidence submitted to a Public Bill Committee, and not ju...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c781 (Link to this contribution) The Standing Order on written evidence does not apply to Committees of the whole House, so I am afra...
Alison Seabeck | 538 c790 (Link to this contribution) I must first draw Members' attention to my indirect interest in the interest declared by my right ho...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c790 (Link to this contribution) There are certainly no details about how the compensation arrangements and the safety net procedure ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c790 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. Friend. There is also no detail as to how the pooling of risk will work, ...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c790 (Link to this contribution) There are two different elements. One is the safety net system, which the Government have outlined w...
Robert Neill | 538 c792 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Amess. You and I know something of local government fro...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c790-1 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to go into the relations between different local authorities. My hon. Friend the Memb...
Mike Hancock | 538 c787-8 (Link to this contribution) Like many Members, I was disappointed by how the proposal has been handled. One reason why I voted a...
Lord Beamish | 538 c789 (Link to this contribution) Another element contributing to the uncertainty that will characterise the proposed new system is th...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c788-9 (Link to this contribution) Let me first draw attention to my interests as declared in the Register of Members' Financial Intere...
Robert Neill | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right. Unfortunately, under the previous Government there was a belief th...
Robert Syms | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) Is not one of the major changes that there will be an incentive for ordinary rate payers and elector...
Robert Neill | 538 c792 (Link to this contribution) I will give way again shortly. Unfortunately, throughout this debate Opposition Members have articu...
Robert Neill | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Lady, as she may not have been here during that time—although I do not ...
Robert Neill | 538 c792 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady fails to grasp the basic principle underlying the Bill. The problem at present is that...
Robert Neill | 538 c792 (Link to this contribution) Let me make a little more progress first. It is a little cheeky of Opposition Members to say that ...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c783-4 (Link to this contribution) I think it will be, and that very point was made last week. The Government claim to be localising bu...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c783 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of setting the baseline. It is absolutely crucial that we get tha...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c782-3 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, Mr Amess. I just want to pick up on the p...
Lord Beamish | 538 c783 (Link to this contribution) What is clear from the Bill is that the Secretary of State will not only retain but increase his pow...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c783 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a very fair point, and if I am correct, those on our Front Bench have tabled am...
David Ward | 538 c782 (Link to this contribution) You and I are going to have to have words later.
David Ward | 538 c782 (Link to this contribution) The issue that I want the Minister to consider is not so much to do with the resets—whether they sho...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c782 (Link to this contribution) Order. I would remind all hon. Members that this is the mother of all Parliaments, and we conduct ou...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c786-7 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right to ask whether the proposal will result in the development and business grow...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c786 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is getting to the heart of why a pause is needed for deliberation on the possible imp...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c786 (Link to this contribution) I have not had the same reaction from my local authority, although the hon. Gentleman and I represen...
George Hollingbery | 538 c786 (Link to this contribution) As I mentioned on Second Reading, I had exactly that reaction from Havant borough council, which is ...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c786 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I tried on Second Reading to make some of those points. Loca...
Alison Seabeck | 538 c785 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes her point well. The Government's left hand does not know what their right hand ...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c785 (Link to this contribution) I was not going to repeat my comments on Second Reading, but my right hon. Friend tempts me into rei...
John Healey | 538 c785 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend amplifies her case. On Second Reading, she told the House something from which this C...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c785 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend expresses the case incredibly well; I agree with everything he said. Have we n...
John Healey | 538 c784 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making a powerful case about the volatility, the unpredictability and the rogue fa...
John Healey | 538 c805-6 (Link to this contribution) Whatever side of the House we are on, we should endorse the principle that objective, sometimes inde...
George Hollingbery | 538 c806 (Link to this contribution) I am in the Committee as much to learn as to speak to the amendments and would welcome a refresher. ...
John Healey | 538 c806 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right—there will be resets—but we do not know after what period or on what bas...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c806 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, but does he share my concern that, if, as is suggested, the...
Bob Blackman | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) Before the previous intervention, I think the right hon. Gentleman was comparing council tax raised ...
John Healey | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) The very point that I am making is that the current system, complex as it is, takes account of resou...
Lord Watts | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) If the Government were truly serious about taking need and the ability to raise funds into account, ...
John Healey | 538 c806 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right—I am about to make a similar point on relatively affluent areas becoming rel...
Clive Betts | 538 c807 (Link to this contribution) It is very easy to talk about resets here and now as an academic exercise, but when the time comes t...
John Healey | 538 c807 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is really saying that we have not had a council tax revaluation. The problem he descr...
Lord Watts | 538 c804 (Link to this contribution) If an area faces the wholesale closure of some of its industries, that obviously creates demand for ...
John Healey | 538 c804 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, as a former leader of St Helens council, knows a great deal about the local governme...
John Healey | 538 c802-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee of the whole House under your chairmanship, Mr. Robertso...
Robert Neill | 538 c801 (Link to this contribution) That sort of belt-and-braces procedure is not at all uncommon. It is our firm intention to press ahe...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c801 (Link to this contribution) What circumstances led the Government to include subsection (7), which allows the Secretary of State...
Mike Freer | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman knows the high regard in which I hold him from when he was in his former po...
Lord Beamish | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend surprised that we are returning to having a Conservative Government who are ...
John Healey | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) Like my hon. Friend, I am not surprised by that. I seriously question whether the scheme will work e...
Helen Jones | 538 c795 (Link to this contribution) This interesting debate has had some detailed contributions from my hon. and right hon. Friends, man...
Robert Neill | 538 c795 (Link to this contribution) Why did the hon. Lady's Government never follow through on their election pledge and localise the bu...
Helen Jones | 538 c795-6 (Link to this contribution) Coming from a member of the party that nationalised the business rates in the first place, that ques...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c800 (Link to this contribution) Before the debate starts, I should tell the Committee that I was fairly lax about the range of the d...
Robert Neill | 538 c800 (Link to this contribution) I will endeavour to deal with the clause stand part debate as swiftly as I can. Clause 1 sets up the...
Helen Jones | 538 c800 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is right to say that the clause sets out the framework for the Bill, and that earlier w...
Annette Brooke | 538 c800 (Link to this contribution) I want to place on record, in the debate on clause 1, how important it is to reform local government...
Lord Watts | 538 c800 (Link to this contribution) There is general consensus that the local government system of funding needs to be reviewed, but doe...
Annette Brooke | 538 c800-1 (Link to this contribution) I believe the Minister explained earlier how the detailed proposals would be scrutinised later in th...
Robert Neill | 538 c801 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). It is import...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) I certainly was not here when the previous Administration were in government, but I would like to gi...
Robert Neill | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) I will give way once to the hon. Gentleman and then I shall make some progress.
Graham P Jones | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) The Minister talks about business growth, but given the changes in the national planning policy fram...
Robert Neill | 538 c793 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady must simply not have been listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), ...
Robert Neill | 538 c794 (Link to this contribution) I shall deal with both those points and give a little detail as to why the suggestion that we are ru...
Robert Neill | 538 c793-4 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely not, and to see that the hon. Gentleman has only to think about two things, the first of ...
Bob Blackman | 538 c794 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, this debate seems to have got muddled and become a discussion of two lots of dates. O...
Robert Neill | 538 c794-5 (Link to this contribution) I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once already. It is also worth remembering, in the context o...
Heidi Alexander | 538 c809 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend was talking about the principles and practicalities at the heart of the Bill. D...
Mark Field | 538 c808 (Link to this contribution) Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the current system also has a whole lot of disincen...
John Healey | 538 c807-8 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is certainly clear from how the cuts to local government h...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c807 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend rightly talks of the unfairness of the possible reset in 10 years' time exacerbating ...
John Healey | 538 c809 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, and I suspect that it will be one of the Minister's biggest headaches in th...
Graham P Jones | 538 c808-9 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is being generous with his time. I want to add a third whammy and take up the p...
John Healey | 538 c808 (Link to this contribution) They will indeed. As my hon. Friend states, there is a double disadvantage to areas such as his. He ...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c808 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is being incredibly generous in giving way. Is there not another problem that h...
Robert Neill | 538 c842-4 (Link to this contribution) It is perfectly fair to observe that the local government finance system in this country is highly c...
Clive Betts | 538 c842 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the slight reassurances about his thinking on the future of the set-aside, ...
Robert Neill | 538 c842 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend's point. He refers to the council tax, which is a separate part of the i...
Mark Field | 538 c841-2 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the straitened financial times make things very difficult, but do I take from what my ...
Robert Neill | 538 c840 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend specifically gave the example of his own council. The point that the hon. Gentleman a...
Lord Watts | 538 c841 (Link to this contribution) I accept that revaluation too often can cause a problem, but does the Minister agree that the valuat...
Robert Neill | 538 c841 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that 10 years is too long. We think that it gives a sensible balance. But it is a goo...
Robert Neill | 538 c840 (Link to this contribution) I will make a little progress before I give way again. The hon. Member for Sheffield South East too...
Robert Neill | 538 c840-1 (Link to this contribution) Let me finish the point and hon. Members may find that their intervention falls into place better. ...
Helen Jones | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which I will come to in a moment. If the Bill comes i...
Andrew Gwynne | 538 c776 (Link to this contribution) It is precisely that uncertainty that is unsettling a number of local authorities, including Tamesid...
Lord Beamish | 538 c779 (Link to this contribution) That is not true. We did. We had a three-year settlement and an increase in the settlement. Through ...
Robert Syms | 538 c768 (Link to this contribution) There are 650 Members of Parliament, many of whom are former councillors. There is a good body of ex...
Lord Beamish | 538 c774 (Link to this contribution) The reason the Bill is being taken on the Floor of the House is that there is no business—the busine...
Bill Esterson | 538 c819 (Link to this contribution) I keep being struck by the tension between, on one hand, the Government's stated support for localis...
Helen Jones | 538 c819 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. His intervention highlights the fact that no matter how much we want to mak...
Clive Betts | 538 c833 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. We just do not know. All the power and the decision making are going to Ministers in a c...
Helen Jones | 538 c792 (Link to this contribution) As the Minister argues that it is important to get these provisions through quickly to provide incen...
John Healey | 538 c805 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has a lot of experience of local government and was a distinguished leader of a c...
Nick Raynsford | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) We have heard a rather partial and not very accurate account of the LGA's view. Perhaps the hon. Mem...
Graham Stringer | 538 c778 (Link to this contribution) None out of ten to the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher).
Mike Hancock | 538 c779-80 (Link to this contribution) My recollection of those years was that money was taken away from the city of Portsmouth, where ther...
Robert Syms | 538 c774 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have been an Opposition politician. Opposition politicians often argue that Bills taken on t...
Helen Jones | 538 c773-4 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is, of course, right. Throughout the Bill, financial risks are transferred to l...
Helen Jones | 538 c822-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, as an independent assessment would be a good idea. Ho...
Annette Brooke | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) As a genuine point of discussion, let us imagine a situation in which set-aside is used for reasons ...
Lord Beamish | 538 c835 (Link to this contribution) It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who is no...
Lord Watts | 538 c832 (Link to this contribution) Is it not possible for a future Government to say, ““We will use that set-aside money to reduce coun...
Chair of Committees of the Whole House | 538 c801-2 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
John Healey | 538 c801 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment 46, page 11, line 31, leave out 'may not exceed' and insert 'should equal'.
John Healey | 538 c808 (Link to this contribution) The extent to which it is a step in the right direction remains to be seen. There is an element of i...
Subjects
Local government
Local government finance
Powers
Planning
Business rates
Reform
Legislation
Local Government Finance Bill 2010-12 to 2012-13
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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