Parliamentary search - Welfare Reform Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

711 c479-540GC

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 32-EN also published.
Wednesday, 18 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) There must be some sort of guide; I should have thought that with something as important as this, th...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c490-1GC (Link to this contribution) We all know the problem is that employers do not want to take on people with mental health problems ...

Show all contributions (139)

Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c499-500GC (Link to this contribution) I will not speak to all these amendments. Indeed, my noble friend Lady Meacher has covered them all ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c493-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to all noble Lords, including the Minister, who have spoken in this exploratory debate...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c493GC (Link to this contribution) I understand that the Government’s view is that they do not need to be because they are already wide...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c507-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am not quite as quick as some Members of the Committee at finding bits of Bills, I have to confess...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c534GC (Link to this contribution) I rather think that example does not cover any case. However, I shall look very carefully at what th...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c514-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can come on to the issue of what is required and compulsory in a moment. I hope that I can...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c518-9GC (Link to this contribution) I well understand the point that my noble friend is probing. It would be better for me to write and ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c519-20GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord raises an interesting point on which I do not have detailed notes. We will certainly ...

Lord Geddes | 711 c524GC (Link to this contribution) At this stage only one amendment can be moved at a time.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c512-3GC (Link to this contribution) Clearly, the assumption behind all this is that drug users are economically rational, change their b...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c488GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee for my late arrival; I am swapping between Chambers today. I support t...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c485-6GC (Link to this contribution) We strongly support this amendment. As the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said, it brings us to a di...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c482GC (Link to this contribution) I thought I had put on the record already, and again today, that we have accepted that recommendatio...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c482GC (Link to this contribution) I do not want to repeat what I said at the end of our previous sitting in Grand Committee, but I fee...

Countess of Mar | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) I remind the noble Baroness of the letter that I read out to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, at our p...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness answers that question, may I reinforce it by asking whether the number of ...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c495-9GC (Link to this contribution) We move on to the amendments to Clause 9, which raise significant issues. I mention, simply for the ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c501-2GC (Link to this contribution) We have already spent many hours on this Bill and are only now coming to one of the most controversi...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c495GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 9: Claimants dependent on drugs etc. Amendment 95 95: Clause 9, page 14, line 20, leave out...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c493GC (Link to this contribution) Will they be expanded under the Bill?

Baroness Murphy | 711 c507GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord looks carefully at Schedule 3 he will find—I am not sure that I can find it immedi...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, £15 million a year, but that was on the assumption that the amendment was focused on the higher...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c534GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness yet again took the words out of my mouth. Before withdrawing the amendment, I was...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c534GC (Link to this contribution) I simply ask the Minister whether he would regard it as reasonable to have something explicit in the...

Lord Rea | 711 c531GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is always approachable and helpful, so would he agree to see before Report a group of...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps he could write to me with how much it would cost if it was the lower rate, so that mobility ...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 13 : Disability living allowance for blind claimants Debate on whether Clause 13 should stan...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 123 withdrawn.

Baroness Crawley | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) We will try to fit the next one in. It is very brief and technical.

Baroness Murphy | 711 c520GC (Link to this contribution) Certainly requiring the attendance of an individual at a day centre, for example, comes under compul...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c520GC (Link to this contribution) I am not sure whether we are focusing on semantics here. So far as any treatment issue is concerned,...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c522GC (Link to this contribution) To conclude, we would all be interested to see the US evidence, but the consultant psychiatrist in t...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c517GC (Link to this contribution) I am sure the department will have made this calculation. Of the 350,000 serious drug users, what is...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c517GC (Link to this contribution) The short answer is that it depends very much on what flows from the pilots. Until we have establish...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c524GC (Link to this contribution) I spoke to them as a group but I moved only the first one.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c528GC (Link to this contribution) If the data are a one-way flow, which we believe they are, why does the Peers’ information pack stat...

Lord Haskel | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) Because the debate on Amendment 99 will also be quite long, the usual channels have suggested that w...

Lord Geddes | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) I do not see the proposer of Amendment 99 here present.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) If the Deputy Chairman of Committees will allow me, it is within the realms of possibility for any M...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c513GC (Link to this contribution) My fear is that the measure would open up the drug dependent category to a whole lot of people who m...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c512GC (Link to this contribution) Have the Government explored with the health professions whether they would be willing to undertake ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c512GC (Link to this contribution) There has of course been engagement with the Department of Health in developing the proposals, but I...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c489GC (Link to this contribution) That is when it should be mentioned, yes.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c489GC (Link to this contribution) "Should"?

Baroness Crawley | 711 c488-9GC (Link to this contribution) We have had an extremely wide-ranging and well informed debate from the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersda...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c488GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment very strongly. In some ways, it is one of the most important amendments of t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c483-4GC (Link to this contribution) The amendment is suggested by the Mental Health Coalition, a group of interested organisations consi...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c482-3GC (Link to this contribution) I thank very much everyone who has contributed to this debate. I listened to what my noble friend sa...

Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c486-7GC (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as an adviser to the Sainsbury Centre for Mental Health. I was, therefore, ver...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c480GC (Link to this contribution) The Committee will realise, if it remembers what I said on the last group of amendments, that I am s...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c480GC (Link to this contribution) I add my support. In some of the letters that I have seen sent to lone parents, the last thing that ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c479-80GC (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness, Lady Turner said, we had a substantial debate on this in the last sitting of ...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) We believe that it is too soon to make that assessment because the scheme came in only in October, s...

Countess of Mar | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Baroness explain how someone is assessed over a period? Are they followed around duri...

Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c491GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has explained why we should not believe what we have been saying. However, there ...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c491-2GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and if I have more information on that specific point I will write to the noble Lord. The in...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c491GC (Link to this contribution) I very much take that point. The Access to Work scheme is not always well known to employers. Nor ar...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c506-7GC (Link to this contribution) Where do I go from here? I want the ideas behind Clause 9 to work. I suspect that we all do. The rea...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c508GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to interrupt the noble Lord on that point. Schedule 3 says that an approved person wou...

Lord Rea | 711 c505GC (Link to this contribution) I have found the quote from the evidence of Royal College of Psychiatrists: ""The College faculty of...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c502-3GC (Link to this contribution) I add my voice to the views expressed, not least because the ascribed identity that makes criminals ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c535GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 123 123: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause— "Mobility component for severe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c537-9GC (Link to this contribution) I find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to resist this amendment, although the Governm...

Baroness Campbell of Surbiton | 711 c537GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. I can assure noble Lords that there are ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c536-7GC (Link to this contribution) My own pathway to work today has been rather lengthy, but I seize it with alacrity. This is the only...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c535-6GC (Link to this contribution) At the outset, I must correct what I said last Monday about the disability living allowance. In doin...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c533-4GC (Link to this contribution) Obviously, this is a framework Bill and the regulations would need to be much more specific. As I sa...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c533GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness does that—oh! or rather before I do so—I had forgotten that we had got our...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c530-1GC (Link to this contribution) What did the Minister mean when he said that information obtained from the police or the probation s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c531GC (Link to this contribution) The Minister did not continue paragraph 5(3)(b), which I think is what concerns the noble Baroness, ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c531-3GC (Link to this contribution) Yes. Given the discussions we have had today and the range of concerns raised, I shall be pleased to...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) This may be a convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until Tuesday at 3.30 pm

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) The Government are obviously quite right to reduce the duplication in the Bill, but the noble Barone...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) As I assume that this is the last amendment of the day—

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to write to the noble Baroness with the figure for the lower rate and to confirm the figu...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) I was only going to say that I am glad that we have not missed our daily ration of the word "conflat...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c520GC (Link to this contribution) I should like to take the point away.

Baroness Meacher | 711 c521-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank every noble Lord who has spoken in this debate. It has been very productive and there is cle...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c521GC (Link to this contribution) It may be a technical point, but it is a very important one. If attending a rehabilitation programme...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c521GC (Link to this contribution) We need to get clarity on this issue. I shall make sure it is followed up and write to noble Lords. ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c522GC (Link to this contribution) I meant to. I have a note that refers to it. We will liaise on these issues with the Department of H...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c517GC (Link to this contribution) I think it will, and those assumptions are on the way. Up to 10,000 people will engage through the p...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c517GC (Link to this contribution) What is that information based on? I am trying to work this out. The department will have made some ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c519GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for that comment. One of the things that has always concerned me about...

Lord Rea | 711 c527GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendments 100 to 102. Amendment 101 takes out all the provisions that allow the Se...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c528-30GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the chance to address these amendments and, I hope, to reassure noble Lords about ...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c528GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I repeat my worry that, by having this information on record, people who may not be in the ca...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c522GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister very much for that offer. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 95...

Lord Rea | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I do not oppose the clause at this stage. Clause 9 agreed. Schedule 3: Claimants dep...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c523-4GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, would have raised the issue of data sharing. I recognise that this...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 99 99: Schedule 3, page 72, line 38, at end insert— "( ) No information disclosed by a pe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c513-4GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises a very interesting point. As I said a moment ago, a positive test would no...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c513GC (Link to this contribution) What would be the difference if the compulsory testing and urine sample provisions were left out? Wh...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c509-12GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an extensive debate and clearly a very informed one. I recognise the strength of feeli...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c509GC (Link to this contribution) In that case I will not comment.

Baroness Afshar | 711 c488GC (Link to this contribution) I add my support, particularly due to the considerable invisibility of mental health among minoritie...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c483GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 94 94: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— "Entitlement to tailored employme...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c482GC (Link to this contribution) It would be a wonderful world if the Government of the day, especially this Government, accepted eve...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c482GC (Link to this contribution) I do not understand it either, because if it was a negative instrument I, my noble friend Lord Kirkw...

Countess of Mar | 711 c487-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for tabling this amendment. My only regret ...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c479GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 7: Abolition of income support Amendment 83 83: Clause 7, page 13, line 34, at end insert— ...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c479GC (Link to this contribution) We had a substantial discussion about the possibility of the removal of eligibility for income suppo...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c482GC (Link to this contribution) In Committee in another place, we said that we would give full consideration to the comments of the ...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) In answer to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, an individual or customer is asked whether they can do an...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c493GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for coming in late and missing some of the opening speeches. For me, the amendment gets ...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c493GC (Link to this contribution) I would be happy to write to the noble Baroness on that. As I originally said, our assessment of the...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c492GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, we take that very seriously; I am sure that a meeting can be arranged. The noble Baroness, Lad...

Baroness Murphy | 711 c505-6GC (Link to this contribution) I wonder if my noble friend Lord Rea will allow me to be his friendly neighbourhood psychiatrist. I ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c508-9GC (Link to this contribution) No, and I am sure that we will discover from the Minister’s answer to the debate whether that is a j...

Countess of Mar | 711 c505GC (Link to this contribution) I am very eager to support my noble friend’s amendment. I know next to nothing about drug addiction....

Lord Rea | 711 c503-4GC (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Dubs has asked me to talk to the stand part debate because he cannot be here th...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c539GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that reply, and particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, for h...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c534GC (Link to this contribution) I am certainly happy to see whether we can reconsider the drafting to address that point more specif...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c530GC (Link to this contribution) I was just coming to that very point. Amendments 101 and 102 focus on this particular power. Amendme...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c531GC (Link to this contribution) It is very much to cover the circumstances that the noble Baroness identified. If somebody has come ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c531GC (Link to this contribution) I am happy to deal with that point and I promise that I shall come to it shortly. We do not intend ...

Lord Geddes | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) The Grand Committee stands adjourned until next Tuesday, 30 June, at 3.30 pm.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) It cannot be the Bill team. You should never blame officials. Clause 13 disagreed.

Baroness Crawley | 711 c540GC (Link to this contribution) The Bill team tell me that it was their fault. They seem to be falling on their sword.

Baroness Murphy | 711 c520GC (Link to this contribution) I want to press the Minister on his previous remarks when he talked about medical treatment. There i...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c522GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Baroness leaves that point, I am not sure whether the Minister answered the point a...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c514GC (Link to this contribution) I suppose that is why one of the amendments suggests or recommends that if there is to be any elemen...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c517GC (Link to this contribution) Will it be a third or two-thirds? The department will have made some assumptions, I presume.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c526-7GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may come back to the situation. I shall not repeat what I have already said, but it is cle...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c524-6GC (Link to this contribution) That is what I meant. I will speak to Amendments 99, 103, 104, 109 and 110. Schedule 3 provides for ...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c524GC (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being back in time. I take it that the noble Lord has moved Amendments 103, 104,...

Lord Rea | 711 c530GC (Link to this contribution) Did the noble Lord say that no information would be obtained from doctors about the care of clients?...

Lord Rea | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 9 should stand part of the Bill. We have covered half the issues to which...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c523GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, I think we can. Another batch of amendments is coming up that focuses on this.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c522GC (Link to this contribution) I am very happy to set up meetings after the end of the Committee stage to continue to address her p...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c513GC (Link to this contribution) The whole thrust of this is to try to help people move closer to the labour market, particularly tho...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c489GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness has used the word "should" twice. The question is: exactly what happens?

Baroness Crawley | 711 c489GC (Link to this contribution) It should be mentioned in a work-focused interview.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c489GC (Link to this contribution) When does the access to work fund get mentioned to the claimant? At what point would that be mention...

Baroness Crawley | 711 c489-90GC (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is the process. Crucially, this assessment identifies the specific support required to un...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c483GC (Link to this contribution) Schedule 2: Abolition of income support: consequential amendments Amendment 84 84: Schedule 2, pag...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c480-2GC (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lady Turner for her amendment, which gives me another opportunity to provide...

Subjects

Disability

Children

Disability living allowance

Disclosure of information

Data protection

Benefits rules

Employment

Jobseeker's allowance

Income support

Jobcentres

Eligibility