Welfare Reform Bill

I well understand the point that my noble friend is probing. It would be better for me to write and circulate the reply to every Member of the Committee who has participated today, rather than giving a few figures that have been not quite plucked from the air, but plucked from the Bench behind me. The welfare state has historically combined rights with responsibilities. In return for benefit payments and extra support, customers who are able to do so should be expected to do their best to find work. Where there is a requirement to carry out a responsibility, there must be a penalty to encourage compliance. As I said previously, the new provisions on drugs will be piloted for two years and subject to evaluation. There are also sunset provisions. Within two and a half years of the regulations coming into force the Secretary of State will be required to report to Parliament on the pilots. A statutory instrument will also be needed to continue the arrangements or repeal them if they are not to continue. This would be done via the affirmative process. There are several points that I still need to address. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about drug tests. To be very clear, these will not be carried out in jobcentres. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, used, I think, the phrase, "declaring war on drug users"; I think that was the tenor of his approach. I genuinely will not accept it as a characterisation of our approach. This is about supporting people but recognising a degree of coercion to get to the starting point of a treatment centre. In the context, it is not unreasonable. In relation to the use of benefit sanctions, these are not new. Many drug users and their families are already experiencing them. Their chaotic lives mean that they fail to sign on or show that they are available for and actively seeking work. If, through these provisions, we can get them into a different category or programme, we can, I hope, support them in moving closer to work and away from the dependency that is destroying their lives and those of their families. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, asked whether Jobcentre Plus staff will identify problem drug users. Let me be very clear: personal advisers will not make assessments of a person’s drug use; they will simply decide who to refer for an assessment. That is all. To do so they will need to be satisfied, as I said earlier, that there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that a person is a problem drug user. The noble Baroness sought to draw a parallel with the community order pilots. I suggest that they are not the same. These pilots use the benefit system to enforce community sentences. We are using the benefit system to enforce decisions made by personal advisers or agreements made with employment providers. It is entirely consistent with what we do within the current benefit system. The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, asked about resources. Certainly, because of record levels of investment in treatment for drug misuse in England, there has been a big expansion in capacity and dramatic reductions in waiting time. I have figures that 93 per cent of drug users are receiving treatment within three weeks of being assessed. The Department of Health and the DWP have looked closely at the likely numbers being referred to treatment from jobcentres, and we will confirm those broad assumptions in writing. We do not think that capacity will be an issue. However, we will monitor the situation closely. Local drug jobcentre co-ordinators funded by the Department of Health and in post from this April will be keeping an eye on any potential pinch points and drawing them to the attention of the local drug partnership. The national treatment agency will be monitoring data on waiting times. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, with his deep experience of what happens in the Prison Service, referred to the drug abuse situation there. Under the Fresh Start initiative, Jobcentre Plus already works with prison services to speed up the receipt of benefit for prison leavers; this really is joined up. Advisers from Jobcentre Plus visit prisons to advise prisoners about benefit claims and finding work. Advisers will encourage those with drug problems to declare drug use so that they benefit from the new programme and, if appropriate, receive a treatment allowance rather than face the full JSA job-seeking conditions. The supply of information about prisoners will additionally help to identify those ex-prisoners who claim benefit and need help and support to overcome their drug problems.