Welfare Reform Bill

We need to get clarity on this issue. I shall make sure it is followed up and write to noble Lords. I understand the point that has been made. I hope that I have dealt with all of the points raised. I am sorry it has been such an extensive response but, given the nature of the debate, I thought it would be helpful to all if I put as much on the record as I can. I am conscious that the voluntary approach is the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, would like this to move forward. That view was echoed by every other noble Lord who spoke, with the possible exception of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. The noble Lord, Lord Rea, with his 25 years as a general practitioner, has a great deal of experience and expressed doubts about whether this would have the desired effect or whether it would drive people into poverty. He made an important point about people being suspicious of authority. I acknowledge that, but if we cannot engage as an authority, how are we going to help these people and move them forward in the challenges that they face in their lives? The noble Baroness, Lady Afshar, said that we were creating criminals. With respect, that is not what we are doing with these provisions. If people are users and dependent on drugs, we will recognise that and help them through a process so that they can get treatment and support, and we hope in due course get off that dependency and into employment. The process that we are focusing on here is not about criminalising people. I accept the point that the rest of the criminal justice structure might do that, but that is perhaps a wider issue for a debate outside our deliberations here. I hope that that has dealt with the point that noble Lords wish to cover; I would be happy to try again if not. Correspondingly, I wonder whether the various noble Lords who tabled the whole raft of amendments might feel able not to press them.