UK Parliament / Open data

Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 24 June 2009, in the House of Lords.
Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill. Lords committee stage second day. Clauses 11 to 38 agreed to. New clauses (Amendments 72 and 74) debated and withdrawn.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
711 c1581-662 
Session
2008-09
Department
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 42-EN also published.
Wednesday, 6 May 2009
Bills
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-2054
Wednesday, 24 June 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Deposited Paper DEP2009-2699
Wednesday, 24 June 2009
Deposited papers
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1634 (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 66, to which the noble Baroness has just spoken. It is a model description of wh...
Lord Baker of Dorking | 711 c1634-5 (Link to this contribution) I support the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Layard. It is entirely laudable. He wants advice giv...

Show all contributions (152)
Baroness Morris of Yardley | 711 c1635-6 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment to which I have added my name. Noble Lords have already said why it is impor...
Baroness Blackstone | 711 c1636-7 (Link to this contribution) I, too, have put my name to this amendment. I do not want to say too much more because most of what ...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1637-8 (Link to this contribution) We welcome the fact that in this group of Amendments 65, 67, 68, 69 and 70A—of which Amendments 67 a...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1638 (Link to this contribution) I support these amendments. I should like to add my name to them to make it 13, or whatever it is, b...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1638-40 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak to Amendment 68 in my name. The Government continually refer in their statutory guidan...
Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1633-4 (Link to this contribution) The amendments tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Sharp appear in the next group but...
Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1640-1 (Link to this contribution) I wanted to clarify that in our amendment we do not specify that the authorised person has to be a t...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1606 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble friend the Minister will bear in mind our earlier comments on the sector skills cou...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1607 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, has already said that we have a series of other groupings in which we...
Lord Ramsbotham | 711 c1606-7 (Link to this contribution) I must admit that putting my name to these amendments was motivated partly by a close personal inter...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1610 (Link to this contribution) First, I thank my noble friend Lady Perry and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for their powerful wo...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1607-10 (Link to this contribution) At the heart of these amendments is a recurring theme: a concern about the need for a commitment to ...
Lord Elton | 711 c1610 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 41 41: Clause 21, page 10, line 18, leave out subsection (4)
Lord Elton | 711 c1610-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 60. These amendments address the same issue that caught the eye of m...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1611 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend Lord Elton for tabling these amendments and, indeed, for his lesson in armou...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1611-2 (Link to this contribution) I should send up a puff of white smoke, I think, and give my noble friend Lord Young a chance to rec...
Lord Elton | 711 c1612 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness for putting on the record what I expected her to. I am reassured...
Lord Layard | 711 c1613-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 59. Both amendments are in my name and the names of the noble Barone...
Lord Layard | 711 c1613 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 56 56: Clause 25, page 11, line 26, at end insert ", subject to the requirements in secti...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1618 (Link to this contribution) I do not want us to continue on a false premise. The Act did not specify off-the-job training; it ta...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1617-8 (Link to this contribution) I was somewhat surprised at the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, and the noble ...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1617 (Link to this contribution) I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lord Layard on the rigour with which he wants apprenticeships t...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1615-7 (Link to this contribution) We agree that off-the-job or classroom learning is an important component of an apprenticeship. It h...
Lord Layard | 711 c1618 (Link to this contribution) I have not reflected on the detailed geographical aspect of the amendment but I am sure that it can ...
Baroness Blackstone | 711 c1618-20 (Link to this contribution) I support everything that my noble friend Lord Layard has said and the Committee will not be surpris...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1618 (Link to this contribution) In relation to guided learning hours and the concept of 250 hours off the job, we would expect those...
Lord Elton | 711 c1622 (Link to this contribution) The last two noble Baronesses said everything that I was going to say. I just wish to endorse what t...
Baroness Blackstone | 711 c1623 (Link to this contribution) On the halfway point between level 1 and level 2, which was raised by my noble friend, I would not d...
Lord Baker of Dorking | 711 c1622-3 (Link to this contribution) I have great sympathy with what the noble Lord, Lord Layard, is trying to achieve by this. When some...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1620-1 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with the intentions behind the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, L...
Lord Layard | 711 c1621 (Link to this contribution) Our amendment is not saying that they should not do unsupervised study; it says simply that that wou...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1621 (Link to this contribution) I think that we are agreed on all sides of the Committee that equality is the most important aspect ...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1623-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to supplement what the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, just said. In terms of reaching level...
Lord Lucas | 711 c1624-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope we will not make the mistakes we made with GCSEs, in producing a curriculum at least half of ...
Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen | 711 c1632 (Link to this contribution) Clause 35: Careers education Before I call Amendment 65, I have to inform the Committee that if Am...
Lord Elton | 711 c1631 (Link to this contribution) I am much obliged to the noble Lord for directing me. I was looking for an interpretation clause at ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1631 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the next bit may help. As is standard practice in legislation, "prescribed" is defined in Cl...
Lord Elton | 711 c1631 (Link to this contribution) I agree with what the Minister says are the words in the Bill but I do not agree with what they mean...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1631 (Link to this contribution) I shall endeavour to address the noble Lord’s concerns. I can only praise his tenacity and determina...
Lord Elton | 711 c1630-1 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendment 64. Amendment 63 strikes in Clause 30(3). That subsection infers tha...
Lord Elton | 711 c1630 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 63 63: Clause 30, page 13, line 32, leave out from beginning to "in" and insert "The Secr...
Lord Layard | 711 c1629-30 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friend for his helpful comments and some reassurance. We will have to come back to ...
Lord Layard | 711 c1632 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 65 65: Clause 35, page 16, leave out lines 2 to 6 and insert— ""(2C) For the purposes of ...
Lord Layard | 711 c1632-3 (Link to this contribution) I will move the amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friends Lady Blackstone and Lady ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1591 (Link to this contribution) My apologies if I went through that too rapidly. I shall reiterate the advice that I have been given...
Lord Rowlands | 711 c1589 (Link to this contribution) I remind my noble friend that, although the skills councils go across the four nations of the UK, th...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1589 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may assist my noble friend in some of his questions, although I obviously do not want in a...
Lord Rowlands | 711 c1588-9 (Link to this contribution) I take the opportunity to make some observations on Amendment 32. Before doing so, I draw attention ...
Lord Elton | 711 c1587-8 (Link to this contribution) This is a small and unassuming amendment. It came upon me rather by surprise, as if I had been walki...
Lord Elton | 711 c1591 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Lord is embarking on a separate point, perhaps we could dispose of this one first. I di...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1590-1 (Link to this contribution) I think I can safely say that this has been a rather wide-ranging debate—somewhat wider perhaps than...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1589-90 (Link to this contribution) Almost all sector skills councils have a presence in Wales, and that is certainly the case with the ...
Lord Elton | 711 c1587 (Link to this contribution) Clause 12: Issue of apprenticeship frameworks etc.: England Amendment 21 21: Clause 12, page 6, li...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1592 (Link to this contribution) Clause 14: Submission of draft apprenticeship framework for issue: England Amendment 27 27: Clause...
Lord Elton | 711 c1592 (Link to this contribution) I gather that the Welsh interest is satisfied. At some stage, it would be very interesting to hear f...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1593 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support this amendment. A lot of work goes into the preparation of a framework of this ki...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1593 (Link to this contribution) The Bill allows the Secretary of State to designate a person to issue apprenticeship frameworks, whi...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment and have some sympathy with the amendment suggested by the noble Lord,...
Lord Elton | 711 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I feel almost more strongly because the requirement in the amendment is simply to make a decision kn...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1594-5 (Link to this contribution) This amendment would require English framework issuing authorities to inform persons submitting a dr...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1594 (Link to this contribution) I read the Bill to assume that the reasons would be given at the time the decision was given. I can ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1591-2 (Link to this contribution) To endeavour to address the concerns of my noble friend Lord Rowlands, perhaps I can reassure the Co...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1601 (Link to this contribution) I have been an employer for quite a large part of my life and I remember that there are employers wh...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1601 (Link to this contribution) We do not set ourselves up as a god of standards at all. If that was what we were trying to do, we w...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1601 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the Minister sets up the Government as the god of standards. There is always disagre...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1599-600 (Link to this contribution) While I understand the desire behind the amendments to ensure that learners are not disadvantaged, s...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1599 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support my noble friend’s amendments, which are very much in line with the spirit of our Ame...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1598-9 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with the general sentiments that have been expressed by both the noble Viscount, Lord E...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1597-8 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support my noble friend’s amendment. I suspect that we are in a clash of basic philosophi...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1596 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 28 28: Clause 14, page 7, line 21, at end insert— "( ) Nothing in this section prevents a...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1596-7 (Link to this contribution) I contemplated rising to discuss my amendment during the previous debate because the issues that I w...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1595 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble friends Lady Perry and Lord Elton for their support, even if I have disappointed th...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1605-6 (Link to this contribution) I am quite sure that the Minister will tell us that of course all of these splendid arrangements for...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1604-5 (Link to this contribution) Amendments 38A, 40, 42, 48 and 173 are designed to ensure the involvement of employers and the secto...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1603 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to have the opportunity to join the Committee stage of discussions at last on a very ...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1602-3 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree with this set of amendments. The term "specification" is, on this occasion, right. A ...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1604 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 38A 38A: Clause 21, page 10, line 14, leave out "such persons as the Chief Executive thin...
Lord Elton | 711 c1604 (Link to this contribution) It not only has a life, it has—as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has drawn to my attention—a parent...
Lord Elton | 711 c1602 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 36 36: Clause 21, page 10, line 12, leave out "specification" and insert "register"
Lord Elton | 711 c1602 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 43 to 45, 47, 49 to 55, 58, 75 and 78. That is almost the longest p...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1602 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lord Elton is continuing to do his best to bring a level of precision and erudition ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1583-5 (Link to this contribution) The amendments relate to the sector skills councils and the standard setting bodies. Amendment 15 wo...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1586 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his reply. I find it slightly odd, when he says that we cannot establish ap...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1586 (Link to this contribution) The sector skills councils will play that role. I pointed out in my contribution that they will dete...
Lord Elton | 711 c1586 (Link to this contribution) If I may made the noble Baroness’s anxieties a little more understandable to the noble Lord, the dif...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1581 (Link to this contribution) Clause 11: English issuing authority Amendment 15 15: Clause 11, page 6, line 14, leave out subsec...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1581-3 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to Amendments 30 and 31, which are in the same group. The amendment would give de...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1583 (Link to this contribution) I will confine my remarks at this stage to saying that we on these Benches agree with the noble Baro...
Baroness Wall of New Barnet | 711 c1583 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and emphasise the comment made by the nob...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1586 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his prescience in the matter of the next election. We will have to wait a...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1587 (Link to this contribution) I listened to what the Minister said, and am grateful. It would be appropriate if we could find some...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) First, I thank my noble friends Lady Perry and Lord Elton for their support, and the noble Viscount,...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I want to make it clear to the noble Lord that I am firmly of the view that as we develop policy and...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) : The noble Baroness is absolutely right. The published strategy will be of great interest to noble ...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) After the Queen’s Speech, perhaps we can have a debate about the Careers Service.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1648 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Lord. Of course, I am aware of the provision of services in Wales, Scotland...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1648-9 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister clarify the position? Is she saying that there is an all-age strategy but that sep...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1647-8 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, for moving the amendment and facilitating the debate. Before...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1648 (Link to this contribution) Is it possible for the Minister to respond to the question asked by the noble Viscount, Lord Montgom...
Viscount Montgomery of Alamein | 711 c1646 (Link to this contribution) I have listened to the debate with considerable interest, as somebody who is quite new to the Bill. ...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. On another point, she said that more information would be forthcoming...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1650 (Link to this contribution) Clause 37: Apprenticeship sectors Amendment 73 73: Clause 37, page 16, line 33, leave out subsecti...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1650-2 (Link to this contribution) We have already had some discussion on Clause 37. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, referred to it rig...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1652 (Link to this contribution) Like my noble friend Viscount Eccles, we would all be very interested to hear from the Minister what...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1652 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, on his imaginative analogy. My cheese-related concer...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) As always, I hope to be as helpful as I possibly can be. As I said, we will be publishing our strate...
Lord Elton | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) From that, do I understand that we can be confident that we shall have the report before Report stag...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1649 (Link to this contribution) The advice that I have had is that we are publishing our strategy in the summer, and I have no reaso...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1650 (Link to this contribution) That is a welcome statement by the Minister. I think we would all be grateful if copies of the repor...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1644-6 (Link to this contribution) In the previous group of amendments we dwelt at length on the need to provide a requirement to inclu...
Baroness Garden of Frognal | 711 c1646 (Link to this contribution) Whereas we of course have some sympathy with the noble Lord’s amendment, our feeling is that, althou...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1646 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. There have been so many changes in the provision of careers services in rec...
Lord Elton | 711 c1641 (Link to this contribution) I am much obliged. There is of course also the effect of being employed by a school, which will have...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1641 (Link to this contribution) It might be wise to remember that, when we are talking about cultural change, there is a limit to th...
Lord Lucas | 711 c1641-2 (Link to this contribution) I sympathise with my noble friend Lord Elton. Looking back 40 years, I think that I was a victim of ...
Earl of Listowel | 711 c1642 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for this stimulating debate. It leads me to ask one question that may have been asked ...
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin | 711 c1642-4 (Link to this contribution) I want to be very clear about my intention. I have listened very carefully to all that noble Lords h...
Lord Layard | 711 c1644 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the Minister for everything that she has said. It was very reassuring and I am...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1644 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 72 72: After Clause 35, insert the following new Clause— "Careers’ service review (1) The...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1659-60 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Earl for initiating this debate. The amendment would require, wherever possible, s...
Earl of Listowel | 711 c1660-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his encouraging and helpful reply. Clearly, I did not read the Bill closely...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1652-3 (Link to this contribution) There are examples involving companies with very small numbers of employees. Carillion ran an intere...
Lord Elton | 711 c1653 (Link to this contribution) In persuading us that this is indeed demand-led, can the Minister tell us the process by which a new...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) The UKCES is not mentioned in the Bill, just as sector skills councils are not mentioned, because it...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1653 (Link to this contribution) Yes, in terms of what we have described as industrial activism. I gave the example of the low-carbon...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1653 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to embarrass the Minister, but could he explain whom he means when he says "we"? When ...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1653 (Link to this contribution) That would probably be within the ambit of the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, which is the...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) We said that we were going to return to the question of sector skills councils. There has been a var...
Lord Elton | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) In support of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, I say that I detect an anxiety in the Committee about ...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister. He should not take it that I do not admire the UKCES. I think that it has done...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) I am not quite sure that I can imagine the circumstances in which we would get rid of the UKCES, but...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1654 (Link to this contribution) I am a member of the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee, a fact that will be known to the nob...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1655 (Link to this contribution) It will be best if, when we write to the noble Viscount, we embrace that aspect as well.
Earl of Listowel | 711 c1656-7 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74 stands in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp of Guildford. I shall spea...
Earl of Listowel | 711 c1655 (Link to this contribution) Amendment 74 74: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— "Public authorities to provide a...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1658 (Link to this contribution) We fully support the intention behind these amendments. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, rightly bring...
Baroness Sharp of Guildford | 711 c1657 (Link to this contribution) I gladly attached my name to this amendment when the noble Earl asked me whether I would be prepared...
Baroness Morris of Bolton | 711 c1658 (Link to this contribution) I add my support for the spirit behind the amendment. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, we sp...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1658 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Listowel. Again, it carries through the intention of...
Lord Elton | 711 c1659 (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the spirit behind the amendment. I have reservations about subsection (1) of the pro...
Lord Elton | 711 c1640 (Link to this contribution) I hope that your Lordships do not go away with the impression that the frequently bandied number 11 ...
Baroness Howe of Idlicote | 711 c1602 (Link to this contribution) I support this amendment. It is a word that is English and is understood by many more people to mean...
Lord De Mauley | 711 c1590 (Link to this contribution) We agree with my noble friend Lord Elton that it would be helpful to tidy up the Bill—or, as he migh...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1652 (Link to this contribution) I did not mean that the apprentice could not be self-employed; I meant that a self-employed tradesma...
Lord Young of Norwood Green | 711 c1625-9 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate all those who have taken part on an absolutely fascinating debate which has spanned t...
Lord Elton | 711 c1646 (Link to this contribution) I join in merely to support my noble friend in his attempt, and to say that I hope that whoever cond...
Viscount Eccles | 711 c1655 (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the discussion. On the basis of what has been said, I...
Lord Elton | 711 c1618 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Layard, can put me right on one matter. As I read his amendmen...
Baroness Perry of Southwark | 711 c1621-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for his clarification, but my objection remains. Part of the number ...
Subjects
Children in care
Apprentices
Further education
Qualifications
Public consultation
Standards
Training
Vocational guidance
Wales
Teaching methods
Sector skills councils
Connexions Service
Basic skills
Legislation
Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill 2008-09
Link
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