Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

I take the opportunity to make some observations on Amendment 32. Before doing so, I draw attention to my interest as president of the National Training Federation for Wales and as an adviser to a south Wales charity, Tydfil Training. The noble Lord, Lord Elton, seeks in Amendment 32 to make a modest amendment to Clause 17. This is one of a number of clauses that devolves authority and responsibility to Welsh Assembly Ministers. We should take this opportunity to discover a little more about the nature of this devolution because it has some history. The original draft apprenticeship Bill that was the subject of pre-legislative scrutiny ran into considerable confusion, if not difficulty, over the issue of what was being devolved. There was considerable confusion in the Welsh Assembly’s deliberations in committees. As I recall, a Select Committee of the other House made some tart observations about the lack of clarity over what was and was not being devolved. My first question for my noble friend is: are the clauses, including Clause 17, now fully agreed with the Welsh Assembly? Have the problems and difficulties that were thrown up by the original draft apprenticeship Bill now been resolved? Is there now a clear distinction as to who will be responsible for what? Secondly, Clauses 16 and 17 envisage a situation where apprenticeship frameworks in Wales could differ from those in England. That is how I read them and, I think, how the noble Lord, Lord Elton, reads them. Welsh Ministers, through the designated persons, whoever they might be, may indeed come up with variations on the frameworks, which would differ from those devised in England. I do not know if that will be the case, but it seems inevitable, unless it is a pure formality. I suspect that it is not and possible variations may well occur in the way that apprenticeship frameworks are developed in Wales and England. I want to draw the attention of the Committee to that issue. Like many other noble Lords, when I thought of apprenticeships in my youth, I assumed that an apprentice was someone who was between 16 and 19 years of age who had left school, having got his O-levels or GCSEs, and did not choose to pursue the A-level route. In Wales, the average age of an apprentice is now 25 years and three months. The large majority are no longer 16 and 17-year-olds, but adults in employment who want to upskill in different ways. It is a very different scene from the traditional view. Can my noble friend say how that compares with the English scene? Are the average English apprentices still 16 to 19-year-olds, or are they adults in work, seeking to upskill, as in Wales? If so, we can see how the changing demands and needs of adults as opposed to 16 and 17-year-olds would have to be met in the workplace. I shall not press this further but there needs to be a degree of conformity. It is an interesting revelation on the nature of apprenticeships, so is the pattern of apprenticeships different in England? That is my first question. Secondly, I suspect, although I have no reason for that other than an instinct, that another reason why there may be differences and variations in apprenticeship frameworks is that a considerable difference has now opened up between the Welsh and English education scenes. The Welsh Assembly Government have not pursued the line of extending the compulsory learning age to 18, so there will perhaps not be the same demand as that which may emerge in England. Apprenticeship programmes in England may take some of the strain of the additional demand created by the compulsory learning age being increased to 18. The Welsh Assembly Government have refused to adopt the English model. We could debate the respective merits, but it might mean that a different pattern of apprenticeships will emerge between Wales and England. Under this clause, is it possible to have different apprenticeship frameworks because of a different response to a different demand? Whatever variations may or may not occur, I trust, hope and pray that there will be a way of mutually recognising them. We need portable skills. We do not want to draw boundaries across skills, especially as people may be required to work in different environments and different geographical areas. I hope that that can be accommodated if and when variations occur. We can see from the Explanatory Notes that in England it is likely that the skills council will fulfil the role. There is just a designated person in the case of Wales; the Explanatory Notes are silent on who may or may not fulfil that role. I hope that my noble friend can illuminate who might be that designated person. The noble Lord has given us the opportunity to explore the variations that may take place as a result of the devolution of responsibility to Welsh Assembly Ministers.