Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

At the heart of these amendments is a recurring theme: a concern about the need for a commitment to consult fully with employers, sector skills councils and other key stakeholders in setting and developing apprenticeship standards for England. We unreservedly share that commitment to ensuring that all who have an interest in apprenticeships have a say in developing the standards that will deliver the highest quality apprenticeships for our learners and employers. That is why we have just completed a full-scale, 12-week public consultation on the specification of apprenticeship standards for England—the SASE—which drew almost 400 responses. It was not some kind of fictitious veneer of process. It was a genuine consultative process, which embraced a wide range of employers. If it had not, it would be irrelevant. They are the people who will provide apprenticeships. Unless they are convinced that the standards that we are setting are both necessary and relevant, we will not get their co-operation. The consultation included not only employers but the HE and FE sectors, training providers, sector skills councils, trade unions, and at least one apprentice who responded. I was interested in the comment that was made in relation to Germany. I agree. I wish that British employers had the same attitude as German employers. We would be in a slightly different situation, but we are where we are. Where I part company is over the idea that, somehow, in the UK, it is not employers who are driving the design of apprenticeships. They most certainly are and we cannot arrive at an apprenticeship framework without the co-operation and collaboration of employers; it would be impossible. The system may not be perfect and is capable of improvement, but it is driven by employers. I have also met representatives of the CBI, the UK Commission for Employment and Skills, the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils, the Association of Training Providers, the Association of Colleges, representative employers from the LSC’s national employer service and other organisations to hear their views on the specifications and standards. As always, I found meeting employers an enlightening and important experience. I am not theorising about what I think employers’ requirements for apprenticeships are; I hear their concerns and needs directly. I give an absolute assurance that we will take careful account of all the views expressed as we finalise the SASE, and then issue it formally by order. At this point I will address the concerns that have been expressed about the importance of employers in this process, which was raised by several noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, drew our attention to the part of the clause that refers to the Secretary of State designating those whom he thinks appropriate. We will take that point away and see whether we can address it. Like Amendment 41, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, which we will come to in a moment, Amendment 42 would require further consultation on the same document. I hope that the noble Lords will accept that this is unnecessary. Both the requirement in the Bill and the very wide consultation that has already taken place demonstrate our commitment to the widest possible consultation. Should we need, at some time in the future, to modify the SASE—say, as a result of the changing needs of sectors and their employers—we will expect the chief executive of skills funding to undertake similarly wide consultation before the modified version of the SASE is put to Parliament for scrutiny. In anticipating the passing of the legislation and having had a consultative process, we have tried to ensure that we can launch these new standards as speedily as possible. If we introduce another consultative round, that will delay the introduction. We talked about speeding up the approval process, so delaying the introduction will not help the situation. Where consultation with persons likely to be affected by a decision or policy is required, the Government’s code of practice on consultation recommends that consultations will normally last for a minimum of three months. That is the very least that Parliament would expect, and I am sure that noble Lords on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee would be quick to draw it to the attention of the House if no such consultation had been undertaken. I know that some noble Lords may have concerns that we are somehow diminishing the role of sector skills councils. I have said repeatedly that nothing could be further from the truth. They are key to a successful apprenticeship strategy. As I have already made clear, sector skills councils will, together with their key partners, have an absolutely central role through their responsibility for developing and issuing apprenticeship frameworks. We recognise fully the need to have employers on board; they are central to apprenticeships. If we do not carry employers with us, as I said, they will vote with their feet and not take on any apprentices. To that extent it is self-evident that they must be consulted and so must other key stakeholders. That is one of the reasons why the National Apprenticeship Service has established a key stakeholder forum. In addressing the heartfelt plea of my noble friend Lady Wall, who asked us to reconsider having sectors skills councils on the face of Bill, my current information is that there is a real danger that by doing so we would introduce a hybrid nature into the Bill that would make it an even more complex and lengthy procedure. Given the concern expressed by all noble Lords who have contributed, we will take away that question of the sector skills councils to establish beyond any doubt whether there is an impediment to putting them in the Bill. I give my noble friend that assurance, although I cannot say what the outcome will be. Obviously, we take it seriously and do not want to introduce an unnecessary difference between us about the role of sector skills councils. My honourable friend, the Minister responsible for further education, made it clear in another place that the key stakeholder forum will include strong employer, as well as union and training provider representation. The group includes the following employer bodies: the Confederation of British Industry, the Federation of Small Businesses, the Institute of Directors, the British Chambers of Commerce—already referred to in this debate—and the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils. It—the key stakeholder forum—will also ensure that the views of colleges, other providers and other interested parties are heard. The Association of Learning Providers, the Association of Colleges, the Local Government Association and the Trades Union Congress, will be consulted and will help inform the development of apprenticeships. The stakeholder forum also has representation from the National Learner Panel to represent the interests of learners. We believe that the National Apprenticeship Service stakeholder group will provide a mechanism to ensure that the views of employers as well as those of their representatives and sector skills councils are taken into account in apprenticeships and that the chief executive of the NAS will be responsive to the needs of employers in the provision of high-quality apprenticeships. That said, I understand the strength of feeling on this issue. While I do not think that any of the amendments would quite work as drafted, I would like to give the matter further consideration before we come back on Report and continue the dialogue with noble Lords about how we can ensure that the Bill reflects the strong views on all sides that the requirement for consultation with employers and their representatives could be made more explicit. Before concluding, I shall respond to a couple of points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about access to apprenticeships for young offenders. They can train against apprenticeship frameworks while in custody, but they clearly will not have an entitlement under the apprenticeship scheme as they cannot be available for work within the agreement. The important point made by the noble Lord about getting young offenders prepared and ready for apprenticeship and work is vital and we concur with it. On the basis of my comments, I hope that the noble Lord will consider withdrawing the amendment.