Welfare Reform Bill

Debate on bills and Committee proceeding on Monday, 15 June 2009, in the House of Lords.

Welfare Reform Bill. Lords Committee stage third day. Clause 1 agreed to as amended. Clause 2 under consideration. Grand Committee held in the Moses Room.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

711 c175-232GC

Session

2008-09

Department

Department for Work and Pensions

Legislative stage

Committee stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords Grand Committee

Welfare Reform Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 32-EN also published.
Wednesday, 18 March 2009
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Countess of Mar | 711 c226GC (Link to this contribution) Not everyone who is unemployed will have a telephone. They may not even have a mobile phone. How wil...

Lord Rix | 711 c224GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that these requirements do not rely on the postal service, of which I can give an example, al...

Show all contributions (154)

Baroness Meacher | 711 c208GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his response and his willingness to have a look at the appeal situation by ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c190GC (Link to this contribution) That is what I suspected. My point is that it is very hard to trace this. It may be that the Governm...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may help on one further point concerning contract monitoring. I should make it clear that ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) Again, I am trying to be helpful to the noble Lord. We have contracted out the evaluation of the "wo...

Lord Rix | 711 c186GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment tills the ground for my own amendments on learning disability which come later. I am ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly do that. I should explain that it is not me who is assiduous in these things; the ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) It is their fault.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) We will endeavour to get a reply to the noble Countess expeditiously.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c199GC (Link to this contribution) But are we having only a one-year pilot or will it be a two-year pilot? If so, how will there be tim...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c231-2GC (Link to this contribution) Preparing for work is only the first step. Once a person has entered work we want to ensure that the...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c226GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may open up that issue. Has not a personal visit been considered in these cases? That woul...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c226-7GC (Link to this contribution) This touches upon the issue generally of someone who has a carer, an advocate or someone supporting ...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c227GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but this is an important point. What if the person cannot re...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c228GC (Link to this contribution) It is the initial contact which is troubling me: the first contact when the jobcentre tries to make ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c227-8GC (Link to this contribution) The fact that someone has a reading difficulty or cannot read and speak English should be known to J...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c230GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have supported the amendment. I was particularly taken with the idea put...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c229-30GC (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can write to the noble Lord, in English, on that matter. I understand why these amendments...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c229GC (Link to this contribution) If memory serves me right, the Plain English society has annual awards. From what year is the award ...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c227GC (Link to this contribution) I am talking about the initial approach when the letter arrives. People look at the thing and have t...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c227GC (Link to this contribution) The fact that someone may not be able to read should be clear to Jobcentre Plus because we are deali...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c217-8GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for that further elucidation. I think that we are back to Dr Pangloss, the Jobc...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c213-7GC (Link to this contribution) This, again, has been an interesting debate which has strayed quite widely. I shall deal first with ...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c219GC (Link to this contribution) What it does it do to the relationship in households where the man makes all the decisions and the w...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c222-3GC (Link to this contribution) This amendment and the ones grouped with it are about the importance of Jobcentre Plus staff making ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c222GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 37 37: Clause 2, page 5, line 18, after "requirement," insert— "( ) it has been shown tha...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c222GC (Link to this contribution) That makes sense. It had occurred to me that it might well be the case that there would not be an in...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c221GC (Link to this contribution) If you look to the situation of a household involving polygamous marriages, the level of a claim tha...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c221GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his comments. This has been a useful debate. Obviously, these are probing a...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c223GC (Link to this contribution) I support Amendment 37 and wish to speak to Amendment 86. I should be grateful if the Minister would...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c223-4GC (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that it applies not only to ESA claimants with men...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c208GC (Link to this contribution) As ever, we reflect on our debates, but I reiterate that the specific exemptions in respect of lower...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c208GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 29 29: Clause 2, page 4, line 22, leave out from "with" to "of" in line 24 and insert "pr...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c210-2GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. My noble friend Lady Thomas is right that her "personally tailored" and sub...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) I am inclined to support this amendment. First, I like the idea of undertaking, ""personally tailore...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c213GC (Link to this contribution) I support the speech that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has just made. The Bill seeks to influence ...

Countess of Mar | 711 c212-3GC (Link to this contribution) In the same vein I find it very odd that we are making mothers go out to work and then pay someone e...

Countess of Mar | 711 c203GC (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. I have had quite a lot to do with mothers of autistic children who have a r...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c203GC (Link to this contribution) The provisions of this amendment fell within my Amendments 22A to 22D. This is a particular case in ...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c202GC (Link to this contribution) This is a probing amendment; we may want to come back to the issue on Report to clarify that. I just...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c190GC (Link to this contribution) I believe it to be the case that part of the operation of Jobcentre Plus is to have teams who do go ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c188-9GC (Link to this contribution) This has been an interesting if somewhat extensive debate around a range of issues which focused on ...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c189-90GC (Link to this contribution) Could my noble friend develop one of the points that he has made? I recognise the attractiveness of ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c187GC (Link to this contribution) Before the Minister replies, I say to the noble Lord and to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, that the t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I will not explain what I mean by "moderately" because it might be embarrassing to all of us. As I ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c197-8GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to try to allay fears and explain on the record what Clause 1 and ...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c194-6GC (Link to this contribution) Following on my noble friend’s questions, as we leave Clause 1 there are practical issues still to b...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c177GC (Link to this contribution) I can envision an adviser—

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c177GC (Link to this contribution) I think that I understand the Minister’s explanation. Perhaps I should have tabled an amendment to l...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c176-7GC (Link to this contribution) Subsection (5) is a technical provision and ensures that there are no loopholes for members of joint...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) I have clearly hit on a most abstruse and difficult point. By no means do I regard myself as a lawye...

Countess of Mar | 711 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I have tabled a later amendment in regard to people with fluctuating ...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 711 c186GC (Link to this contribution) I, too, support the amendment. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for bringing it to our att...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c185GC (Link to this contribution) Will specific training be given on how to deal with minorities, among whom any kind of nervous disea...

Countess of Mar | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) In that case, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 27 withdrawn.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c230GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 43 43: Clause 2, page 5, line 48, leave out "or remain in"

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c232GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for that information. I had occasion, I think on Thursday, to comment when I saw two C...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c225GC (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that postal delays did not prevent the noble Lord, Lord Rix, receiving his just deser...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c226GC (Link to this contribution) Probably by post in those circumstances.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c229GC (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister address the language question—not whether the claimants speak English but whether ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c228-9GC (Link to this contribution) The initial contact is effectively brought about the other way around. It happens when someone calls...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c229GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness raises a good point. Generally, the department seeks to ensure that these things ...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c218GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 36 36: Clause 2, page 5, leave out lines 12 to 15

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c218-9GC (Link to this contribution) I move Amendment 36 and shall speak to Amendment 77. My noble friend Lord Skelmersdale and I have ta...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c217GC (Link to this contribution) If the noble Baroness will forgive me, perhaps I may stress a point that perhaps I did not emphasise...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c219-20GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has set me a challenge: no double negatives. I will see if I can deal w...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c205GC (Link to this contribution) Can my noble friend help me? If the lone parent is on income support with a carer’s premium—I think,...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c205-7GC (Link to this contribution) Yes; I was referring to jobseeker’s allowance and income support. For people who are in the JSA full...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c207-8GC (Link to this contribution) Would my noble friend like to comment further? He has very helpfully described the situation as it i...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c208-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to the other amendments in the group. We debated this matter under Clause 1, so t...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c209-10GC (Link to this contribution) I have tabled several amendments in this group and it might be appropriate if I speak to them now. T...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) I support the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. This matter applies particularly to minor...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) For many of them every day is a disaster because they do not know what to do. To impose another sanc...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) Hear, hear.

Baroness Meacher | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) Under the Bill, a lone parent who cares for a disabled child with entitlement to the middle or highe...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c201-2GC (Link to this contribution) In this amendment, I was talking about the problem of excluding lone parents on the lower rate of DL...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c202GC (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Baroness's amendment expected to include mobility allowance? It was not clear from the ...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c202GC (Link to this contribution) We support the amendment. I should declare an interest in that I receive disability living allowance...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c203-4GC (Link to this contribution) I am afraid I am going to be the grit in the ointment on the amendment, which will dismay many Membe...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c205GC (Link to this contribution) Am I right in thinking, therefore, that lone parents with a child between three and six would be req...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c204-5GC (Link to this contribution) I was going to go on to say that, because the interview process is part of the conditionality, for p...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) It is a simple question, and the answer is as follows: this is not specifically dealt with in Clause...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c191GC (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister undertake to write to me on the questions I raised about help with filling in for...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c187-8GC (Link to this contribution) I add my support for Amendment 26. We are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, for bringin...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) To the same organisation that is involved with the Flexible New Deal evaluation. I can write to the ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) That would probably be helpful. None the less, there is a movement from the jobcentre to the contrac...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c192GC (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. "Pathways" has nothing to do with jobseeker’s allowance; it ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) To whom?

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Two pilots? In that case, it seems unforgivable if there is not one in a rural area and one in an ur...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c197GC (Link to this contribution) Two.

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c198GC (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord leaves that point, how early could they be referred?

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c198-9GC (Link to this contribution) We have no particular timescale in mind. I think that it will be when a personal adviser sees a bene...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c194GC (Link to this contribution) Debate on whether Clause 1, as amended, should stand part of the Bill. This clause breaks new grou...

Lord Geddes | 711 c175GC (Link to this contribution) Before commencing proceedings, I must advise the Committee that if there is a Division in the Chambe...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) We are dealing here with a technical provision to ensure that the legislation works as we want it to...

Lord Geddes | 711 c177GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, was in full flow. I apologise for interrupting him.

Lord Geddes | 711 c177GC (Link to this contribution) A Division has been called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee will resume at 10 minutes to four. S...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c177GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that the technical note I have just read out explains the connection with the existing sancti...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c175-6GC (Link to this contribution) I have been taken by surprise, as I rather expected the Deputy Chairman to announce that if this ame...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c175GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 1: Schemes for assisting persons to obtain employment: "work for your benefit" schemes etc. ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c181GC (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, I am delighted to discover that when a pilot does not work ver...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) I am certainly happy to have a meeting with the noble Lord to give him a more detailed explanation. ...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 25 25: Clause 1, page 4, line 12, leave out paragraph (a)

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c180GC (Link to this contribution) As the person who had the honour, privilege and pleasure of introducing this in the first place, I c...

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c179-80GC (Link to this contribution) This is an interesting moment at which to stop and reflect on how the pilot worked out in practice. ...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c186-7GC (Link to this contribution) I strongly support the amendment, not unnaturally in the context of what we discussed last Thursday;...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c181-2GC (Link to this contribution) No, I was just looking to scotch the suggestion that there is more to this than meets the eye; gener...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c182-4GC (Link to this contribution) We now come to an even knottier problem: what exactly is going on in jobcentres up and down the coun...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c199GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is right; October 2010 is the start date because that is a year after the first Flexi...

Countess of Mar | 711 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 27 27: Before Clause 2, insert the following new Clause— "Programme of research into empl...

Countess of Mar | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) I have already spoken to this amendment but I move it to clarify a point. In his response to my spee...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Yes.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c199GC (Link to this contribution) Before we do that, I understood the Minister to say that the two pilots that we are talking about in...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c230-1GC (Link to this contribution) I hope that we can complete this in seven and a half minutes, but we shall see. Judging by our rate ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c224-5GC (Link to this contribution) Cap that. I support the rationale behind the noble Baroness’s amendments; indeed, as the Committee w...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c226GC (Link to this contribution) I need to check volumes and practicalities on this. I shall do that and revert to noble Lords specif...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c226GC (Link to this contribution) If the claimant cannot speak English well enough to understand what is being said, would it be possi...

Countess of Mar | 711 c219GC (Link to this contribution) I can see the poor Benefits Agency staff having quite a problem. What happens if the chap has two wi...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c217GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who supported the amendment. Our debate has ranged widely from practical poi...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c220GC (Link to this contribution) What happens in the cases of strictly observant Muslims where it is impossible to get to the househo...

Lord Taylor of Holbeach | 711 c222GC (Link to this contribution) I have to say that the complexity of the issue is profound and it is useful that the Minister has be...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c222GC (Link to this contribution) I have another point to add. It would obviously be fraudulent if someone put in a claim for two hous...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c220-1GC (Link to this contribution) There are issues about which benefit people are seeking to access and the process to access it. Pres...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c207GC (Link to this contribution) How can voluntary work possibly be a requirement?

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c207GC (Link to this contribution) It is what is agreed as part of the action plan. There are obviously processes under which someone c...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) It would be uncharted waters.

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope | 711 c212GC (Link to this contribution) It certainly would be uncharted waters. I should be happy to carry her bags and work with my noble f...

Baroness Meacher | 711 c200GC (Link to this contribution) Clause 2: Work-related activity: income support claimants and partners of claimants Amendment 28 2...

Baroness Wilkins | 711 c203GC (Link to this contribution) To make it a full house, I also support the amendment. I declare an interest as having just finished...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c202GC (Link to this contribution) I would add that minority women suffer on two fronts. Among many minorities, any kind of disability ...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) Does what the Minister has just said mean that there will be no interview of any sort before the chi...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) I am so sorry; I was reading a note and missed what the noble Lord said.

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. All but the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, l...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c205GC (Link to this contribution) The answer, from the noble Baroness’s point of view, is that the amendment is needed, because what s...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) No; it has nothing to do with conditionality. All that I am interested in is the interview process.

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c204GC (Link to this contribution) I was asking whether what he has said means that there will be no interview for single parents under...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c191-2GC (Link to this contribution) I agree that the role of Jobcentre Plus should be to help with that process, but I will write specif...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c191GC (Link to this contribution) Indeed. I believe that that will be the case and if it is not—if the noble Lord would prompt me on i...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c190GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I was thinking that a member of staff from a jobcentre could, f...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is quite right; my terminology was wrong. Clause 1 is indeed about welfare to work, w...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c192GC (Link to this contribution) Rather like the Government never apologising for either inflation or, as we have now, deflation, I d...

Baroness Hollis of Heigham | 711 c192GC (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord explain the word "moderately"?

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c196-7GC (Link to this contribution) We have had two and a half days on Clause 1 and there are still questions to be asked, as both the n...

Baroness Afshar | 711 c196GC (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for his suggestion. I suggest that pilots should also include densely populat...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c193GC (Link to this contribution) Of course, the centre of the DWP is not dysfunctional, which I accused the individual jobcentres of ...

Lord Northbourne | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) Having listened to the Minister’s exposition of the position, I was only going to say that of course...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c181GC (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend, as ever, for her explanation of her engagement in this at an earli...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c178GC (Link to this contribution) The phrase "buckets of salt" comes to mind. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amend...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c179GC (Link to this contribution) Unlike with local housing allowance, there has been a fairly prompt evaluation of this pilot. I note...

Lord McKenzie of Luton | 711 c178-9GC (Link to this contribution) I shall speak also to the other government amendments in this group. In 2001, the Government introd...

Baroness Thomas of Winchester | 711 c184-5GC (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, on this amendment, which gives us the chance to di...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c182GC (Link to this contribution) Amendment 26 26: Clause 1, page 4, line 16, at end insert— "( ) No provisions in this section shall...

Lord Skelmersdale | 711 c182GC (Link to this contribution) What I think the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—I am putting words into his mouth now—and I would require...

Subjects

Disability

Children

Disability living allowance

Contracts

Benefits rules

Carers

Age

Advisory services

Autism

Fraud

Employment

Jobseeker's allowance

Income support

Jobcentres

Expenditure

Exemptions

Interviews

Ethnic groups

Jobcentre Plus

Learning disability

Offenders

Mental illness

Pilot schemes

Recruitment

Staff

Minority groups

Postal services

Lone parents

Social security

Social security benefits

Vulnerable adults

Training

Research

Rural areas

Unemployment

Unemployed people

Voluntary work

Literacy

New deal schemes

Labour market

Polygamy

Employment and support allowance

Community orders

Legislation

Welfare Reform Bill 2008-09

Contains statistics

Yes

Link

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