UK Parliament / Open data

Government of Wales Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 9 January 2006, in the House of Commons, led by Lord Hain. The answering member was Cheryl Gillan.
Government of Wales Bill. Second reading debate. Amendment negatived on division (161 to 341). Main question agreed to on question. Programme motion for proceedings in Committee, on Report and Third reading agreed to on question (formal). Money resolution agreed to on question (formal)
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
441 c22-127 
Session
2005-06
Department
Wales Office
Legislative stage
Second reading
Procedure
Programme motions
Money resolutions
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Government of Wales Bill . Explanatory Notes Bill 100-EN also published.
Thursday, 8 December 2005
Bills
House of Commons
Better governance for Wales. Welsh Affairs Select Committee first report with proceedings, evidence (HC 551 i-iv not printed separately) and appendices.
Tuesday, 29 November 2005
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Albert Owen | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The Bill does not propose to do away with the regional committee, but does ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) As ever, my hon. Friend makes a valuable point. It is a great disappointment to me that no Assembly ...

Show all contributions (301)
David Jones | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) It is called proportional representation.
Ian Lucas | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is correct. My regional constituency candidate lost, yet the strange thing is that the lar...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c91 (Link to this contribution) I should have so much more sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, and would share his views, if the syste...
Ian Lucas | 441 c90-1 (Link to this contribution) It is called defrauding the electorate; it is called wasted votes—something about which the Liberal ...
Roger Williams | 441 c91-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate on the developing devolution situation in Wales. ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c91 (Link to this contribution) I understand that point. I am expressing my views to my Front Bench colleagues and I am sure that th...
Nigel Evans | 441 c92 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is also illogical to have established the Welsh Assembly on th...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c100-1 (Link to this contribution) Is it not a fact that the Secretary of State is aware of the sleight of hand that he is pulling off?...
David Jones | 441 c101-2 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right. The Presiding Officer of the Assembly, Lord Elis-Thomas, recently ...
Wayne David | 441 c102 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept the simple point that it is morally unjustifiable for losers to becom...
David Jones | 441 c102-3 (Link to this contribution) That was always a perfectly foreseeable consequence of the devolutionary settlement. It is extraordi...
David Jones | 441 c98-9 (Link to this contribution) The most charitable criticism that one might make of the Bill is that it is premature. Perhaps a les...
Mark Tami | 441 c98 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I will not give way because I have gone over my time. The Bill is a step in the rig...
David Jones | 441 c99-100 (Link to this contribution) I am making the point that at the time of the 1997 referendum, a significant majority of the Welsh e...
Hywel Williams | 441 c99 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House the proportion of the electorate of Clwyd, West that voted fo...
David Jones | 441 c100 (Link to this contribution) That is not correct at all. The Order in Council procedure will add extra matters to fields in which...
Roger Williams | 441 c100 (Link to this contribution) It is my understanding that Orders in Council refer only to matters that are already devolved to the...
Albert Owen | 441 c106-7 (Link to this contribution) That is a different point. Nearly every Opposition Member who has spoken has said that the changes a...
Julie Morgan | 441 c104 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, without the list system, the Conservatives would have won only ...
Nigel Evans | 441 c103-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall make only a short contribution to the debate, because I know that a number of Labour Members...
Jessica Morden | 441 c103 (Link to this contribution) Given that we are running out of time, I shall make only one specific point that has not been mentio...
Albert Owen | 441 c106 (Link to this contribution) I, too, pay tribute to Merlyn Rees and Tony Banks, two people whose company I thoroughly enjoyed. Bo...
Nigel Evans | 441 c105 (Link to this contribution) That is what I thought as well, when I heard the argument. It would set a dangerous precedent to tak...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c105 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may have noted the suggestion from a Government Member that list AMs should receive l...
Roger Williams | 441 c94-5 (Link to this contribution) I will come to that later in my speech. Despite the extensive and costly consultation by the Richar...
Mark Tami | 441 c95-6 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) to her new job on the Opposit...
Roger Williams | 441 c93-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Lady is one respect, namely, that the Orders in Council procedure is unnecessa...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c94 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, but on the basis of what he has just said I invite h...
Roger Williams | 441 c94 (Link to this contribution) We will not vote to decline the Bill a Second Reading and we will not vote with the Conservatives on...
Wayne David | 441 c94 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether he is in favour of the Assembly having tax-raising powers?...
Ian Lucas | 441 c93 (Link to this contribution) Just as a point of clarity, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the Richard commission was set up b...
Roger Williams | 441 c92-3 (Link to this contribution) A referendum is not necessary. Although the Assembly is very unpopular in Wales from time to time—in...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c93 (Link to this contribution) I presume that the hon. Gentleman would agree that the introduction of the complicated process of Or...
Roger Williams | 441 c93 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether it was the price of the Liberals going into coalition, but it was certainly a ...
Mark Tami | 441 c98 (Link to this contribution) No. That would make the situation even more complicated and people would not understand what on eart...
Mark Tami | 441 c97-8 (Link to this contribution) I certainly did not say that such Members should have a lower salary. I said that they do a differen...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c98 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman think that the problem that he is outlining regarding Miss Wood and her oper...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c97 (Link to this contribution) May I establish that the hon. Gentleman said that Members elected on the list system are not proper ...
Mark Tami | 441 c97 (Link to this contribution) We need to examine that matter. I accept that the hon. Gentleman has experience of the situation bec...
David Jones | 441 c97 (Link to this contribution) : What does the hon. Gentleman consider to be the legitimate role of a regional Member of the Assemb...
Mark Tami | 441 c96-7 (Link to this contribution) I accept that it is a problem and that it will take imaginative work to come up with a clear solutio...
Hywel Williams | 441 c96 (Link to this contribution) I think that many of us share the hon. Gentleman’s views on the Assembly’s work load, but has he con...
Sian C James | 441 c116 (Link to this contribution) No, I want to finish my speech. We need a clear protocol for how people describe themselves, how th...
Wayne David | 441 c116-7 (Link to this contribution) My comments will be brief. I have three essential points, but I begin by pointing out that I have al...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c117-9 (Link to this contribution) It has been a pleasure to participate in the debate. I well remember the original Government of Wale...
Lord Hain | 441 c119 (Link to this contribution) What precise question would the hon. Gentleman ask people in the referendum?
Dominic Grieve | 441 c119-20 (Link to this contribution) If the question is, do people wish to be governed by Order in Council moderated in its detail by the...
Jim Devine | 441 c120 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Dominic Grieve | 441 c120 (Link to this contribution) I will not give way because I wish to give the Minister the opportunity to make his winding-up speec...
Nick Ainger | 441 c120-1 (Link to this contribution) I, too, welcome the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) to her new position. I also w...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c121 (Link to this contribution) At the pre-legislative scrutiny stage, will the draft Assembly measure be attached?
Nick Ainger | 441 c121-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, the preliminary draft measure, along with its explanatory memorandum, will be attached. It will...
Nick Ainger | 441 c121 (Link to this contribution) No, I am sorry. Normally I would be very generous, but I have 10 minutes to wind up and 26 contribut...
Nick Ainger | 441 c122-3 (Link to this contribution) No. I have told the hon. Gentleman that I will not give way. The Arbuthnott inquiry in Scotland is ...
Sian C James | 441 c114-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan), an...
Nia Griffith | 441 c113-4 (Link to this contribution) It gives me great pleasure to speak on this Bill, as I know that it would have gladdened the heart o...
Hywel Williams | 441 c110 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend says that it is nonsense, and it clearly is convoluted nonsense. We have a system th...
Martin Caton | 441 c110-1 (Link to this contribution) During the period before the 1997 general election I campaigned, within my party and outside it, for...
Julie Morgan | 441 c111-3 (Link to this contribution) I strongly support devolution. I voted for it in 1979 and was disappointed when it was so overwhelmi...
Albert Owen | 441 c107 (Link to this contribution) I will take an intervention, but it must be brief, because other hon. Members want to speak.
Hywel Williams | 441 c107 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman said that people are confused, but I refer him to the evidence given to the Welsh...
Albert Owen | 441 c107 (Link to this contribution) I am not aware of the research to which the hon. Gentleman referred, but if he tells me what it is, ...
Hywel Williams | 441 c107-9 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the Bill, which, for the faint-hearted, does not do a great deal as regards stage two powe...
Sian C James | 441 c116 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but ““this area”” implies the place where they are standing. I wonder how they have the time...
Sian C James | 441 c115-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker. When I am out and about, I deal with questions such as those I out...
Speaker | 441 c115 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Lady must sit down when I am on my feet, otherwise she will be committing another of...
Sian C James | 441 c115 (Link to this contribution) They are not a huge issue; the big issues are, as we have said, public services and standards, but w...
Sian C James | 441 c115 (Link to this contribution) I shall let you interrupt at your will.
David TC Davies | 441 c115 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady is very kind and she knows that I have a great deal of affection for her from our prev...
Lord Hain | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the impenetrable nature of that question. Fortunately, I unders...
Lord Hain | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) The shadow Attorney-General mutters from a sedentary position that that is very centralising, but it...
Andrew Turner | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman referred to Members of the Welsh Assembly being in close touch with their c...
Lord Hain | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) There speaks the true voice of the Tory party, and we see that from the reasoned amendment. The Tori...
John Bercow | 441 c25-6 (Link to this contribution) Given that the Secretary of State has been celebrating the merits of devolution, how does he explain...
Lord Hain | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will know that levels of ill health and industrial disability as a result of our ...
Nigel Evans | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) I am not here to fight old battles, but neither am I here to listen to history being rewritten. Why ...
Lord Hain | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, as the hon. Gentleman knows, turnout in all elections in Britain has been falling ove...
Speaker | 441 c22 (Link to this contribution) I should inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposi...
Lord Hain | 441 c22-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. May I express the House’s condolences to th...
Lord Hain | 441 c25 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right about the crucial role of business and the private sector in Wale...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c24 (Link to this contribution) It is undoubtedly true that one of the successes of the Welsh Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Govern...
Lord Hain | 441 c24 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has quoted Lord Barnett accurately. However, the Government have taken a careful ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c24 (Link to this contribution) The Minister will be aware that Lord Barnett, the instigator of the Barnett formula, feels embarrass...
Lord Hain | 441 c23 (Link to this contribution) What I am really saying is that the false and specious charges made at that time by the Conservative...
David TC Davies | 441 c23 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State appears to be telling us that devolution was not about giving more power to t...
Lord Hain | 441 c24 (Link to this contribution) I applaud my hon. Friend for standing up for his constituents and vigorously making a case on their ...
David Leslie Taylor | 441 c24 (Link to this contribution) Part 5 of the Bill deals with financial aspects, including the creation of a Welsh consolidated fund...
Lord Hain | 441 c23-4 (Link to this contribution) I have always favoured regional government in England, and I think that its time will come. Instead...
Ben Wallace | 441 c23 (Link to this contribution) If it is good enough for the Welsh people to have devolution and power over their own decisions, and...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c76 (Link to this contribution) I make no apologies for my party being in government—that is a very good thing. The fact that we mov...
David TC Davies | 441 c76 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman realise that consensus means agreeing on all the things that one can agree o...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c77 (Link to this contribution) Enhanced consultation is set out clearly in the Bill, and there are key words such as ““sustaining””...
Roger Williams | 441 c76-7 (Link to this contribution) : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is sincere in wanting to improve consultation between the Welsh ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c77-8 (Link to this contribution) I point out to the hon. Gentleman that I do not suffer any great disadvantage under the present syst...
Hywel Williams | 441 c77 (Link to this contribution) : I ask the hon. Gentleman the question that I asked the Secretary of State earlier: how would the B...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c78 (Link to this contribution) I return to the point, and I think that the Bill envisages the situation, that Assembly Members shou...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c78 (Link to this contribution) I want to take up the hon. Gentleman on his point, because he clearly takes the view that there shou...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c75-6 (Link to this contribution) So it was. That suggests that the Committee stage will be even more difficult. We can already see t...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c73-4 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the hon. Gentleman and have no doubt that the matter will be subject to considerable de...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c73 (Link to this contribution) I am not seeking to kick the hon. Gentleman, and we must return to that important matter in Committe...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c73 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is about to kick me again.
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c74-5 (Link to this contribution) I have no doubt that the Salisbury convention will be prayed in aid in the inevitable tussle with th...
Kevin Brennan | 441 c74 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Salisbury convention should apply to measures in the Govern...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c74 (Link to this contribution) I had hoped that the Minister would respond, but I have got a Whip—
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c72-3 (Link to this contribution) The core point would be whether the Secretary of State acted reasonably in the circumstances. It is ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c75 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to rise in support of the Bill and in opposition to the reasoned amendment tabled by Co...
Hywel Francis | 441 c68-70 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point to which the Under-Secretary of State for Wales will res...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c68 (Link to this contribution) : During our debate, there has been a blurring of the line between the draft order and the Assembly ...
Chris Ruane | 441 c71 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman said two.
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c70-1 (Link to this contribution) I add my sincere condolences to the words already uttered regarding Lord Merlyn-Rees and Lord Stratf...
Hywel Francis | 441 c66-8 (Link to this contribution) I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) on her new appointm...
Daniel Kawczynski | 441 c66 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. She has encapsulated in a far better way than I have t...
Hywel Francis | 441 c68 (Link to this contribution) In a word, yes. The hon. Lady has anticipated what I was going to say. If pre-legislative scrutiny i...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c68 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman’s chairmanship of the Committee led it to make certain proposal...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c71-2 (Link to this contribution) Did I? As usual, I am being generous to the Government. However, it is a genuine concern and I hope ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c72 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made an important point. The difficulty is, however, that if anyone wanted to...
Wayne David | 441 c65 (Link to this contribution) What is the hon. Gentleman’s policy for resolving that problem, as he sees it?
Daniel Kawczynski | 441 c64-5 (Link to this contribution) I agreed with almost every word that the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) said. He...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 441 c64 (Link to this contribution) Someone on an all-Wales list standing in a strictly proportionate election going to a particular con...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c64 (Link to this contribution) The method that the right hon. Gentleman proposes has something to commend it, but if such a system ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 441 c63-4 (Link to this contribution) It is for the individual parties to sort out how they select people for election. That is a problem...
David TC Davies | 441 c63 (Link to this contribution) It will never happen, but a candidate on a list would have a vested interest in ensuring that his co...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c66 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, given the catalogue of issues that need resolving, it would have bee...
Ian Lucas | 441 c66 (Link to this contribution) For the hon. Gentleman’s information, Wrexham and Alyn and Deeside are not in the objective 1 area a...
Daniel Kawczynski | 441 c66 (Link to this contribution) I am talking about the difference between Shrewsbury and Montgomeryshire, which affects Shrewsbury. ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c58-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way because the policy line that we are taking is obv...
Lembit Opik | 441 c59 (Link to this contribution) Let us move on to that point. We should remember that the Welsh Affairs Committee was unequivocal in...
Jenny Willott | 441 c59 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend mentioned the Richard commission, the report of which was well researched and clear. ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c59-60 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend rightly points out, those in government in Wales commissioned the report. It is in...
Mark Tami | 441 c60 (Link to this contribution) : Would the hon. Gentleman describe the Electoral Reform Society as a non-partisan organisation or d...
Lembit Opik | 441 c60 (Link to this contribution) Anybody who believes themselves to be a democrat and to be passionate about free speech will view th...
Lembit Opik | 441 c60-1 (Link to this contribution) As I said, the Liberal Democrats feel that, in essence, the Welsh Assembly deserves the same powers ...
Nigel Evans | 441 c60 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has just referred to himself as a democrat, so I must drag him back to the issue ...
Lord Murphy of Torfaen | 441 c61-3 (Link to this contribution) I join in the comments made by Members of the House about Tony Banks and particularly, from a Welsh ...
Speaker | 441 c61 (Link to this contribution) May I say to hon. Members that no time limit was imposed on speeches by Back Benchers, but there is ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c56 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman suggests that the Richard commission gave detailed consideration to relevant matt...
Lembit Opik | 441 c57 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an insightful point. Although he and his party may be coming at the issue f...
Lord Hain | 441 c57 (Link to this contribution) That exists now. Under existing procedures, a Secretary of State, myself included, could decide not ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c56-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right, but in many ways that is a tactical matter. The way in which the Assemb...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c57 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. He may agree that it is not a question of whether the S...
Kevin Brennan | 441 c58 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not got much time.
Nigel Evans | 441 c57-8 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the current settlement was endorsed by the people of Wales in...
Lembit Opik | 441 c57 (Link to this contribution) Although I suspect that it has happened by accident, we violently agree. The Secretary of State appe...
Lembit Opik | 441 c58 (Link to this contribution) Very shortly. I shall finish on this point. Ironically, the Secretary of State and the Conservative...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that the changes to the electoral system for all elections throughout the UK were f...
Lord Hain | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) It was in the Welsh manifesto.
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) It may have been in the Welsh manifesto, but it was not in the Scottish and London Assembly manifest...
Lembit Opik | 441 c55-6 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan) to her new Front-Bench role on We...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c51-2 (Link to this contribution) Does that mean that the Government will apply the measure to Scotland, in which case why did it not ...
Lord Hain | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) Since the hon. Lady has raised the issue, I shall tell her that the measure appeared in the UK manif...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c54-5 (Link to this contribution) I agree with much of what the right hon. Gentleman says. Is it not fair to say that as the First Min...
Mark Tami | 441 c88 (Link to this contribution) I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but is it not the same old argument that additional list Members ...
David TC Davies | 441 c88 (Link to this contribution) There is a huge argument to be had about the relative merits of all sorts of different proportional ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c88 (Link to this contribution) The person who did most to deliver devolution in the United Kingdom was Margaret Thatcher. She alien...
Nigel Evans | 441 c88-9 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman sets a dangerous precedent with his argument. Does he not appreciate that even ...
David TC Davies | 441 c87-8 (Link to this contribution) I fully agree with my hon. Friend, as I do on most matters that relate to devolution—[Hon. Members: ...
Ian Lucas | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that the North Wales Regional Committee, as it currently functions, is the most effect...
Ian Lucas | 441 c89 (Link to this contribution) I am very conscious of the relationship between England and Wales, England and Scotland, and England...
Daniel Kawczynski | 441 c89 (Link to this contribution) : Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if Welsh citizens are to use services across the border in Engl...
Ian Lucas | 441 c89-90 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is describing particular circumstances. I do not agree with what he said earlier ...
David Jones | 441 c90 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman refers to the fact that the Assembly is less remote from the people, but does not...
David TC Davies | 441 c78 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that under our system members of the public have a chance to reject people? Under...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c78-9 (Link to this contribution) There is a perfectly coherent proposal in the Bill, which is to choose one or the other. It is the s...
Stephen Crabb | 441 c79-80 (Link to this contribution) Whatever questions people in Wales are currently asking about devolution, I do not believe that the ...
Wayne David | 441 c80 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman arguing that, if there is a referendum, one of the questions posed ought to be...
Stephen Crabb | 441 c80-1 (Link to this contribution) My view is that the Welsh Assembly is not going to go away. [Interruption.] Let me answer the hon. G...
Hywel Williams | 441 c81 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could clear up a confusion that has arisen in my mind. I seem to remember...
Albert Owen | 441 c82 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has been very honest in his answers to earlier interventions. Does he agree with ...
Stephen Crabb | 441 c82 (Link to this contribution) Pembrokeshire is a very independent-minded place and, as much as I try to train my association, we t...
Dai Havard | 441 c82-3 (Link to this contribution) I have reservations about the Bill, which I have made clear on a number of occasions. Not the least ...
Hywel Williams | 441 c83 (Link to this contribution) To refer back to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents on the bus, would they, or the hon. Gentleman him...
Dai Havard | 441 c83-4 (Link to this contribution) The last time I saw Mr. Glyn Mathias was in Carmarthen castle at an event for the Historical Society...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c83 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman and am enjoying his contribution. His constituents may come up t...
Dai Havard | 441 c83 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. Lady, I thought about voting against the Bill tonight, but I dismissed it for the reas...
David TC Davies | 441 c86 (Link to this contribution) It is not without merit. The Secretary of State for Wales currently works quite well with the First ...
Albert Owen | 441 c86 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman touches on a very important point about scrutiny by the National Assembly. Is not...
David TC Davies | 441 c84-6 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to declare an interest in all senses of the word, as I have been sitting as a Welsh A...
Ian Lucas | 441 c86 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the Secretary of State can already prevent the Assembly’s proposals from being imp...
David TC Davies | 441 c86-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will be aware that I am doing what the Government of Wales Bill allows me to do. ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c87 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution and I can see why his electors return him to the ...
Ian Davidson | 441 c31 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend may not have been sufficiently bold on the question of democratic accountabilit...
Lord Hain | 441 c31 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend knows, the Welsh Assembly Government have already put in train a series of measure...
Philip Davies | 441 c32 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c31-2 (Link to this contribution) You will know that my hon. Friend represents a Scottish constituency, Mr. Speaker, but I do not inte...
Mark Tami | 441 c30 (Link to this contribution) The amendment clearly says:"““declines to give a Second Reading””." That is as clear as it can be, ...
Albert Owen | 441 c31 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend mentions democratic accountability. One of the reasons the Assembly was set up ...
Lord Hain | 441 c30-1 (Link to this contribution) I realise that the hon. Lady has had a lot of trouble in her early days as shadow Welsh Secretary. S...
Lord Hain | 441 c32 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make a little progress, and then I shall be happy to let the hon. Gentleman intervene. Th...
Adam Price | 441 c32 (Link to this contribution) What is the Secretary of State’s response to the Electoral Commission’s view that the changes propos...
Lord Hain | 441 c32-3 (Link to this contribution) I think it is wrong and I shall cite alternative evidence later in my speech. The hon. Gentleman mig...
Lord Hain | 441 c29 (Link to this contribution) I do not agree, but the hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I shall look closely at what he has...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c29 (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to take bread from the mouths of my fellow lawyers, but surely we should put withi...
Lord Hain | 441 c28-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a good point in the first part of his question and asks a reasonable questi...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c28 (Link to this contribution) In agreeing with the Secretary of State, may I say that the reasoned amendment is the most unreasona...
Lord Hain | 441 c28 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that it is exactly the latter. It is a wrecking amendment. The Conservatives, at the first...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c28 (Link to this contribution) : Will my right hon. Friend note the words of the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan)...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c30 (Link to this contribution) On one side of the argument, the Secretary of State wishes to minimise the changes and to say that t...
Lord Hain | 441 c30 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Lady is wriggling and squirming in respect of her reasoned amendment. The t...
Lembit Opik | 441 c29 (Link to this contribution) : Is not the Secretary of State making the very point that is salient? He is allowing an anti-devolu...
Lord Hain | 441 c29-30 (Link to this contribution) The days of viceroys ended in 1997; since then, Secretaries of State for Wales have represented Wale...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) On this occasion, there could be a holy alliance between hon. Members, because certainly some people...
Philip Davies | 441 c35 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c34-5 (Link to this contribution) I do not know where the hon. Lady has done her research, but the First Minister is fully signed up t...
Roger Williams | 441 c36 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c35-6 (Link to this contribution) I will make progress, then take more interventions. Through this new, streamlined procedure, the As...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c37 (Link to this contribution) I want to understand a little more about the pre-legislative scrutiny. If I understand the Secretary...
Lord Hain | 441 c36-7 (Link to this contribution) I would like to explain the procedure, then I will take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman. Fi...
Lord Hain | 441 c37 (Link to this contribution) Because, quite simply—I have dealt with this point before—it is not a major constitutional shift. Pa...
Lord Hain | 441 c37-8 (Link to this contribution) We have taken careful account of the Richard commission report and the debate that has taken place s...
Lord Hain | 441 c33 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has only just wandered into the debate and his point is rather wandering as well....
Angus Brendan MacNeil | 441 c33 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State concede that with first past the post somebody could be elected merely o...
Lord Hain | 441 c33 (Link to this contribution) I was about to come to that point. The problem with being so generous in accepting interventions is ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c33 (Link to this contribution) The possibility of people both standing for a seat and being elected from the list when they were de...
Lord Hain | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) No, but I studied what has happened in Mexico and Thailand, and in Canada, in New Brunswick, among o...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) I am not in an unholy alliance with anyone, as far as I know—at least, I was not until just now—but ...
Lord Hain | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) There we have it in its full glory—the real Conservative face of Wales exposed. Why have the hon. Ge...
David Jones | 441 c33 (Link to this contribution) Does not it operate to the advantage of those Labour constituency Members that a softer candidate wi...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c34 (Link to this contribution) Since I am in a charitable mood, of course I give way.
Dominic Grieve | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to give way, but I am not clear who is speaking for the Conservatives from the Front Benc...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State says that the proposal is in tune with the people of Wales and with democrati...
Lord Hain | 441 c26 (Link to this contribution) I will shall it with great enthusiasm. There is the Conservative party seeking to speak with a moder...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c26-7 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State clearly did not listen to what I said to him. I did not suggest that there wa...
Ian Lucas | 441 c27 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the great successes of the devolution settlement since 2...
Lord Hain | 441 c27 (Link to this contribution) I realise that the hon. Gentleman is not a Welsh Member of Parliament, but he clearly does not under...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c27 (Link to this contribution) I think we should look quite closely at what the Secretary of State proposes in the Bill. Lord Richa...
Lord Hain | 441 c27 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That illustrates the absurdity of the Conservative party, whose ...
Lord Hain | 441 c27-8 (Link to this contribution) So there we have it: the first words spoken from the Dispatch Box by the hon. Lady, with her customa...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c50 (Link to this contribution) : I have already welcomed the hon. Lady to Wales and to our debate. Does she agree that one of the g...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c50 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman will be the first to volunteer to give up his seat in the House so t...
Chris Bryant | 441 c50 (Link to this contribution) May I say something before the hon. Lady leaves the subject of powers? She will know that difference...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c50 (Link to this contribution) It is not a question of the merits or otherwise of pre-legislative scrutiny. It is a question of wha...
Chris Bryant | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady just does not know.
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c50-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for treating me as if I were in the Government. Perhaps he would...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The proposed rigging of the electoral system will, despite the prote...
Speaker | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman must keep quiet.
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c51 (Link to this contribution) Let me make a little progress, please. The prime motivation for this appears to be the political in...
David TC Davies | 441 c38 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c38-40 (Link to this contribution) No. I am sorry, but I need to make progress and have already given way to the hon. Gentleman. If Pa...
Lord Hain | 441 c40 (Link to this contribution) The Bill is about Wales. One of the things that Conservatives find difficult to understand is that d...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c40-1 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State prepared to place in the Library details of all the objections and problem...
Lord Hain | 441 c41 (Link to this contribution) I shall certainly reflect on the hon. Lady’s request, but I am about to explain the circumstances th...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?
Lord Hain | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) I will give way for the shadow Attorney-General to disagree with the Preseli Pembrokeshire Conservat...
Philip Davies | 441 c38 (Link to this contribution) Given the narrow result of the referendum that set up the National Assembly for Wales in the first p...
Lord Hain | 441 c38 (Link to this contribution) I do not know the hon. Gentleman’s majority, but a victory is a victory under our democracy. If one ...
Lord Hain | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Different parts of the United Kingdom have different—[Interruption.] I expect the Conservatives to s...
Hywel Williams | 441 c42-3 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State cited as an abuse that he wishes to remedy the fact that list Members set up ...
Lord Hain | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Exactly. The comments that I quoted earlier from Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, independents, ac...
Roger Williams | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the Secretary of State will help us on Northern Ireland. Is dual candidacy a feature of the ...
Lord Hain | 441 c43 (Link to this contribution) They will be drawn up by the National Assembly itself. In his party’s interests, may I discourage th...
Lord Hain | 441 c43 (Link to this contribution) It would not stop them setting up constituency offices. However, I think that the Assembly may make ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 441 c43 (Link to this contribution) Surely the right hon. Gentleman understands that Helen Mary Jones is saying that she is Llanelli-bas...
Lord Hain | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that I took that intervention. That is because I have further evidence explaining exactly ...
Huw Irranca-Davies | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Does the Secretary of State share my immense regret that we have to discuss these matters today? We ...
Dominic Grieve | 441 c42 (Link to this contribution) Given the importance that the Secretary of State attached to this issue as a matter of principle, wh...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c46-7 (Link to this contribution) I would have expected the hon. Gentleman to look forwards rather than backwards, because he will run...
Wayne David | 441 c47 (Link to this contribution) So that we have absolute clarity on the hon. Lady’s exact position, will she say whether she agrees ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c45 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"““That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Government of Wales Bill b...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c46 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman’s extraordinary intervention is premature. If he contains his enthusiasm, I will ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c46 (Link to this contribution) : Although I am impressed by Conservative Front Benchers’ apparent change of heart, will the hon. La...
Speaker | 441 c43 (Link to this contribution) Order. I apologise for interrupting the right hon. Gentleman, but we must not have continual sedenta...
Lord Hain | 441 c43 (Link to this contribution) I will take that as an instruction to make progress, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is significant, however,...
Lord Hain | 441 c43-5 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may wish to know that, yet again, a member of Plaid Cymru has been caught red-handed,...
Ian Lucas | 441 c49-50 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Lady, and welcome her to her post. The people of Wales did have a vote, in May 200...
Lord Hain | 441 c49 (Link to this contribution) As a Cabinet Minister, I cannot determine the House’s procedures—and nor should I. That is a matter ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c49 (Link to this contribution) The point is that it is pre-legislative scrutiny. We will not have the document; it could change. It...
Lord Hain | 441 c47 (Link to this contribution) The point is that the three Welsh Members sitting behind the hon. Lady have advocated returning heal...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c47-8 (Link to this contribution) Before you rule the Secretary of State out of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I suggest that his real pro...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c47 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will not take me down that route. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Vale of Clw...
Albert Owen | 441 c45 (Link to this contribution) : Will the hon. Lady be as clear with the House as her predecessor, who favoured a referendum on abo...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c48-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the Secretary of State understands. He told us that the precise nature of pre-le...
Nigel Evans | 441 c104-5 (Link to this contribution) I cannot begin to tell the hon. Lady how grateful we were to the Labour party for creating a system ...
Lembit Opik | 441 c58 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to the question of referendums shortly.
Roger Williams | 441 c37 (Link to this contribution) If Orders in Council are such a good idea, why did neither the Government nor the Labour party in Wa...
Andrew Pelling | 441 c40 (Link to this contribution) Is the Secretary of State saying that that abuse is peculiar to the Welsh political culture or that ...
Daniel Kawczynski | 441 c65 (Link to this contribution) Although I believe in devolution, I believe also that there must be some form of joined-up governmen...
Alan Williams | 441 c52-4 (Link to this contribution) Given that many Members want to speak in this debate, and that I intend to construct my contribution...
Stephen Crabb | 441 c81-2 (Link to this contribution) I think my response to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) answers that question as well. The...
Stephen Crabb | 441 c106 (Link to this contribution) Is the hon. Gentleman not aware of the evidence on the electoral arrangements provided to the Wels...
Alan Williams | 441 c55 (Link to this contribution) That suggests a degree of egocentricity on the part of my right hon. Friend that no one would associ...
Cheryl Gillan | 441 c49 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a little progress. I will let the hon. Gentleman know when I am going to give way to ...
Lord Hain | 441 c48 (Link to this contribution) I am happy to say to the hon. Lady, as she has asked me, that there is a number of outstanding bids ...
Subjects
Devolved matters
Abuse
Accountability
Constituency size
Constituencies
Candidates
Devolution
Constitutions
Delegated legislation
Assembly measures
Finance
Elections
Legislative process
Disqualification
Legislative competence
Functions
Electoral systems
First ministers
Legislative drafting
Pay
Members
National Assembly for Wales
Referendums
Parliamentary scrutiny
Politics and government
Parliament
Proportional representation
Wales
Welsh Government
National Assembly for Wales Commission
Welsh Consolidated Fund
Legislation
Government of Wales Bill 2005-06
Link
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