Government of Wales Bill

The last time I saw Mr. Glyn Mathias was in Carmarthen castle at an event for the Historical Society. I have had plenty of opportunities to talk to Glyn Mathias, but I do not think that he is instrumental in this. I do not demur from the idea that it is daft to have someone standing on a list and also in a constituency. It is political gerrymandering of a sort, which does nothing at all for the legitimacy of the institution and does not do anything partisan for the Labour party. It also goes to guts of the proportional representation system that populates the institution. My right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) talked about different processes to deal with some of the issues. Personally, I will not vote for PR. However, I also do not favour referendums. Since the time of Harold Wilson back in the 1960s, it seems to have become the thing to have referendums on constitutional issues. The test that I applied earlier was whether the measure was required now. It certainly will be required later, and what is good about the Bill is that it institutionalises the idea that there will not be primary powers unless a referendum takes place. We are not dealing with my worries about the current electoral process. My concern is that I might not get the opportunity to deal with them later either. The Bill talks about ““the question””—not ““the questions””—which will be whether we have primary powers or not. Where is the question about the electoral process? Does the Bill actually debar that from happening at that point? That is the crunch for me and it will make the difference at Third Reading as to whether I support it. That question underlies a lot of the problems that have been talked about in terms of the interim measures on the electoral process. I was in favour of devolution and I still am. The Welsh people—narrowly, as the hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) said—voted to democratise the powers of the Wales Office. They did not vote for much more than that. We therefore have to be very careful, which is why the power for extension has to remain here. That is where the Welsh people wanted it to stay. Unless and until that changes, that must be the point at which a referendum takes place. In that referendum, we will also have to deal with the electoral process. I want to know whether, by voting for the Bill, we will avoid that—by default, design or some sleight of hand—or whether that is the point at which the debate will take place.