Parliamentary search - Armed Forces Bill

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

440 c1129-203

Session

2005-06

Department

Ministry of Defence

Legislative stage

Second reading

Procedure

Programme motions

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Armed Forces Bill. Explanatory Notes Bill 94-EN also published.
Wednesday, 30 November 2005
Bills
House of Commons

Armed Forces Bill. Defence Select Committee first report with proceedings and an appendix.
Tuesday, 6 December 2005
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

The Office of the Judge Advocate General. Constitutional Affairs Select Committee second report with proceedings, evidence (HC 731-i not printed separately) and appendices.
Tuesday, 6 December 2005
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons

Proceeding contributions

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1129 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. The Bill results from a comprehensive revie...

Robert Key | 440 c1170-1 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State. In that case, we shall have great fun working out whodunit....

Show all contributions (128)

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1170 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely that the principle under the Bill of Rights that every Parliament should reauthoris...

Robert Key | 440 c1169 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right.

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1169 (Link to this contribution) May I reinforce the point that my hon. Friend is making? Under the Bill of Rights 1689, no standing ...

Joan Humble | 440 c1168 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right, but I should like to ask the Minister whether, if the Bill is passed, a sol...

Robert Key | 440 c1168-9 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the Secretary of State on winning the game of musical chairs that has been running fo...

Joan Humble | 440 c1167-8 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Of course, we are discussing the armed forces, but si...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1168 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a big difference between actions on the battlefield or, for ...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1167 (Link to this contribution) The second case relates to Corporal Clegg. The hon. Lady appears not to take account of the fact tha...

Linda Gilroy | 440 c1199 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister give way?

Lord Touhig | 440 c1198-9 (Link to this contribution) This has been an important debate, with significant contributions. I shall try to answer as many poi...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1196-8 (Link to this contribution) It has nothing to do with anti-Euro myths or with anything else. Time is short, and I have made that...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I am very fond of the hon. Gentleman, who is a former member of the Defence Committee. However, he i...

Lord Touhig | 440 c1199-203 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I want to cover as many points as possible, although I would norm...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I am merely responding to the specific allegations about the specific case. It might as well be argu...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the House is grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. Lying behind recent ca...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1196 (Link to this contribution) Clearly, these charges are being brought under English law. Charges cannot be brought in any other w...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1194 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury has noted the Secretary of State’s comments....

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1194-5 (Link to this contribution) I will be delighted to give way to my hon. Friend in a moment, but may I tell the Secretary of State...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1194 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1195 (Link to this contribution) There is nothing inconsistent between that and my accurate description of the fact that the offences...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1195 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has made the point that we are not allowed under the sub judice rule to comme...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1195 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury has heard that. He might wish to intervene.

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1187 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that and I hope that he will understand how strongly I f...

Adam Price | 440 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) It is always a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), who can be ...

Bob Russell | 440 c1189 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that no body was ever found, and that there were no hospital records...

Adam Price | 440 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) I am quoting directly from the Judge Advocate General, who said that there might be"““sufficient evi...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1185-7 (Link to this contribution) Nowhere. Since the hon. Gentleman asks, however, let me say that I am very interested in Gibraltar. ...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1187 (Link to this contribution) I listened to my hon. Friend’s contribution from my office while I was attending another meeting. He...

Pete Wishart | 440 c1190 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Does he agree that the military is the last bastion standing ...

Adam Price | 440 c1190-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree; we need an independent process to maintain public confidence. If proper processes were in p...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1192-4 (Link to this contribution) This has been a fascinating debate. It is to the great credit of the House that it has been able to ...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1194 (Link to this contribution) On the speech made by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier), may I clear up something that he...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1179-80 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has made his point well. The standard of proof is, of course, supposed to be the ...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1181-3 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the architects of the Bill, who have brought before Parliament a most interesting mea...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1176-9 (Link to this contribution) In reply to the Secretary of State’s justified remark about my absence, may I make it clear that I l...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1179 (Link to this contribution) On the hon. Gentleman’s point that it is easier to get a conviction in a court martial, I understand...

David S Borrow | 440 c1174-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for being called to contribute to this debate. I apologise to the Secretary of State a...

Robert Key | 440 c1185 (Link to this contribution) : Where do the Gibraltar defence police fit into the hon. Gentleman’s argument?

Julian Brazier | 440 c1183-4 (Link to this contribution) I do not have chapter and verse in front of me, but let me reassure the hon. Gentleman that the prov...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman and I can conclude this discussion only by saying that we will have to agree to d...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1183 (Link to this contribution) There is an important distinction here. Of course I have no problem with the court; I thought that I...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1183 (Link to this contribution) On the former case, I am not going to trespass into sub judice. It is inappropriate for us to mentio...

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 440 c1171 (Link to this contribution) While my hon. Friend is in a gap between clauses, may I take him back to a point that he made about ...

Robert Key | 440 c1171-2 (Link to this contribution) The analysis of my right hon. Friend is wholly right. Clause 83 introduces a strange little power: ...

Joan Humble | 440 c1172 (Link to this contribution) The families that I meet would welcome just being present and just being involved. They could probab...

Robert Key | 440 c1172 (Link to this contribution) No one could possibly disagree with that. I am sure that that is an issue that the hon. Lady will pu...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1172 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point, but the Deepcut families and others are seeking tr...

Robert Key | 440 c1172 (Link to this contribution) Up to a point, Lord Copper. There are people in the armed forces who really value the presence of ch...

Andrew Mackinlay | 440 c1172-3 (Link to this contribution) I am focusing on the hon. Gentleman’s point. Surely clause 361 covers it. Does it not effectively ex...

Robert Key | 440 c1173 (Link to this contribution) There are other circumstances where only certain sorts of non-commissioned officers can perform cert...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1173 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the example that the hon. Gentleman gives of the Australian defence force. Does he agre...

Robert Key | 440 c1173-4 (Link to this contribution) Of course the hon. Gentleman is right about operational capabilities, but it does give confidence wh...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1147 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a small technical, but important point. As the hon. Gentleman knows, I do not make de...

Speaker | 440 c1147 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sure that hon. Members are well aware of the position with regard to some cases. Some of...

Chris Bryant | 440 c1146 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, not least because I have not been present for th...

Liam Fox | 440 c1146-7 (Link to this contribution) Far be it from me to attempt to put words into the Secretary of State’s mouth, but it is difficult e...

Liam Fox | 440 c1149 (Link to this contribution) I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. As I said at the outset, the system must be transparen...

Liam Fox | 440 c1147-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Before you took the Chair, I was careful to say that I would answer a qu...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1149 (Link to this contribution) : Is my hon. Friend aware that a recent letter from the Adjutant-General, revealed in another place,...

Liam Fox | 440 c1145-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall come to that issue later, when it is appropriate for me to do so. Perhaps the most graphic ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 440 c1145 (Link to this contribution) : What is the hon. Gentleman’s view on the George Mendonca case?

Liam Fox | 440 c1144-5 (Link to this contribution) This major new Bill will have far-reaching consequences for all members of Her Majesty’s armed force...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to the Secretary of State. If, in the heat of battle, the commanding officer...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1141 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is asking me to square a circle, which cannot be done. One cannot give absolute a...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1141 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1141-2 (Link to this contribution) No. The hon. Gentleman raised the matter, but then he was not present—no doubt for very important...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way one last time, and that is it.

Lembit Opik | 440 c1142 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to start a major debate about Deepcut, but the Secretary of State will be aware that o...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1141 (Link to this contribution) I will allow the hon. Gentleman to intervene, but that is the last time, or there will be complaints...

Linda Gilroy | 440 c1166 (Link to this contribution) On the subject of public confidence, does my hon. Friend agree that families want not only to see ju...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1166 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that, even when accidents occur or when individuals die tragically in acci...

Joan Humble | 440 c1166 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. That is why the Deepcut and Beyond group is still asking for a public inqui...

Pete Wishart | 440 c1165 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Lady on the assiduous way in which she chairs the Deepcut and Beyond familie...

Joan Humble | 440 c1165-6 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is right. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) also drew attent...

Joan Humble | 440 c1164-5 (Link to this contribution) I am especially pleased to follow so many considered contributions from colleagues on both sides of ...

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 440 c1164 (Link to this contribution) That is unarguable. My next and rather different point concerns offences at sea. The Minister may b...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1164 (Link to this contribution) When the previous Committee took evidence on that point from parents, the problem was not only that ...

Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 440 c1161-4 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) has thought deeply about these matters, and over severa...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1160-1 (Link to this contribution) I totally agree. The Ministry of Defence and the military have to realise that society has moved on....

Lord Beamish | 440 c1158-60 (Link to this contribution) I agree totally with my hon. Friend, and we did indeed take evidence from those who were no longer t...

Linda Gilroy | 440 c1160 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has said how important it is that the public should see the system as independent. Do...

Linda Gilroy | 440 c1153 (Link to this contribution) As I said a moment ago, the explanatory notes are silent on that. Perhaps when he sums up, my hon. F...

Michael Moore | 440 c1153-7 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Linda Gilroy), both because of the ...

Lord Beamish | 440 c1157-8 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by saying how pleased I am to be called to speak on this important Bill for the men and ...

Joan Humble | 440 c1158 (Link to this contribution) : The Defence Select Committee did indeed produce an excellent report and call for evidence from fam...

Lord Beith | 440 c1149 (Link to this contribution) : The hon. Gentleman made an interesting point about randomly selected panels. Did he look at the po...

Bob Russell | 440 c1153 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Lady have any idea who is asking for the annual review to be dropped?

Linda Gilroy | 440 c1150-3 (Link to this contribution) I welcome this Bill for the reasons that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence set...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1132 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Secretary of State, and I am sure that everybody appreciates the assurances wit...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1132 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), because he indicated that he wanted...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1131-2 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a second. We have robust rules of engagement and if our people use lethal force ...

Joan Humble | 440 c1133-4 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend mentions the proper independence of the armed forces investigatory authorities....

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1133 (Link to this contribution) No, it will make no difference. It is possible at the moment for manslaughter to be laid as a charge...

Adam Price | 440 c1133 (Link to this contribution) With regard to certain serious offences committed within the United Kingdom—for instance, manslaught...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1132-3 (Link to this contribution) Those issues have been raised with me, but I must tell the hon. Gentleman honestly that they have be...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1134 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, but then I must make some headway.

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1134 (Link to this contribution) In the case of Deepcut, we have appointed an independent inquiry and investigation, headed by the we...

Speaker | 440 c1129 (Link to this contribution) Order. That sounds suspiciously like a failed urgent question to me. The hon. Gentleman should make ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 440 c1129 (Link to this contribution) As my right hon. Friend will be aware, a statement was made on Friday about the decision not to pros...

Julian Brazier | 440 c1130 (Link to this contribution) Before the intervention of the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle), the Secretary of State was sayin...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1129-30 (Link to this contribution) I shall have to give a briefer answer than is merited by the seriousness of the question. Prosecutio...

Tobias Ellwood | 440 c1130 (Link to this contribution) Conservative Members are concerned about the challenge to the absolute authority of commanding offic...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1130 (Link to this contribution) I shall return to the specific point that the hon. Gentleman makes, but I ask him to accept that—how...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1131 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1130-1 (Link to this contribution) I will attempt to explain as I go through my opening speech that the measures that have been taken a...

Gerald Howarth | 440 c1140 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s desire to keep matters within the military family, so to spe...

Gordon Prentice | 440 c1140 (Link to this contribution) Can soldiers who are charged with a serious offence such as murder opt for civilian jurisdiction rat...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1139-40 (Link to this contribution) May I make some progress before giving way? As long as we fail to tackle the problem, cases such as...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that the situation has changed. Indeed, we want to try to make sure that there is not...

Philip Hollobone | 440 c1139 (Link to this contribution) I appreciate the Secretary of State’s intention in introducing the Bill, but is there not a danger i...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1139 (Link to this contribution) That is not a new problem. Joint jurisdiction already operates in such cases. In response to my inqu...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1140-1 (Link to this contribution) In the heat of battle, the commanding officer would wish to reflect. That, I take it, is accepted. H...

Liam Fox | 440 c1139 (Link to this contribution) It is worth pointing out that a court martial already has the ability to deal with charges such as m...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1135-6 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman can indulge me by letting me get beyond page two of my speech I might reach so...

Pete Wishart | 440 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for giving way again on this important issue. Will he describe in a l...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1136-8 (Link to this contribution) Let me make a little progress, and then I will allow some more colleagues to intervene. I want to s...

Lord Beith | 440 c1136 (Link to this contribution) Will the Secretary of State give way?

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1134-5 (Link to this contribution) Yes, of course I understand the deep trauma and the tragedy and difficulties faced by parents and lo...

Lembit Opik | 440 c1134 (Link to this contribution) My question relates directly to Deepcut. The Bill is the perfect opportunity to try to ensure that t...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1135 (Link to this contribution) I will take one more question, but then I shall go for a long time without interventions.

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1138-9 (Link to this contribution) I have not given that serious consideration. I understand that that issue has only recently arisen i...

Lord Beith | 440 c1138 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State has explained well why he has brought the Bill to this point, and I accept hi...

Liam Fox | 440 c1149-50 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman raises important issues. One of the advantages of the Select Committee is t...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1140 (Link to this contribution) No. They can apply for a court martial on a range of offences, but they cannot opt out in favour of ...

Joan Humble | 440 c1166-7 (Link to this contribution) I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. I believe that the Bill, as drafted, will miss a valuable oppo...

Lord Reid of Cardowan | 440 c1142-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concentrating on Deepcut and its importance. He will understand, h...

Subjects

Complaints

Disciplinary proceedings

Criminal investigation

Discipline

Appeals

Crime

Courts

Administration of justice

Armed forces

Army

Armed conflict

Courts martial

Civilians

Air force

Inquiries

Jurisdiction

Homicide

Dismissal

Powers

Prosecutions

Military police

Officers

Navy

Military law

Low flying

Sentencing

Standards

Trials

Service Civilian Court

Legislation

Armed Forces Bill 2005-06

Link

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