UK Parliament / Open data

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate on bills on Monday, 11 July 2011, in the House of Lords.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. Lords report stage third day.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

729 c475-503, c521-41, c562-96

Session

2010-12

Department

Home Office

Legislative stage

Report stage

Procedure

New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. As amended in Committee.
Thursday, 16 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords

Deposited Paper DEP2011-1222
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Deposited papers
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Lord Beecham | 729 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I follow my noble friend on that particular point about political balance. As currently co...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 729 c490 (Link to this contribution) All I will say, if I am allowed to treat that as an intervention, is that I found it pretty messy an...

Show all contributions (146)

Lord Shipley | 729 c491 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 121 and 123. I mention in passing that it seems clear that the...

Lord Newton of Braintree | 729 c490 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall interject a question from a slightly more sceptical angle, while understanding whe...

Baroness Henig | 729 c490 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can explain to the noble Lord that that is precisely what happens at the moment. In a two-...

Baroness Browning | 729 c493-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I must confess, for the first time in taking this Bill through the House, that I am genuin...

Lord Beecham | 729 c494 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what the noble Baroness says, but what if, given the discretion to which she referred, the...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 729 c491-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am slightly confused now. Those of us who argued for the ““of those present”” amendment ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c492-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lady Farrington takes us back to the core of the debate. Of course, the qu...

Baroness Browning | 729 c494 (Link to this contribution) I hope that there would be a discussion early on on the panel if there was a debate about the need t...

Lord Beecham | 729 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) The Minister has prayed in aid the LGA’s claim of a triumph in persuading the Government to reduce f...

Baroness Browning | 729 c482 (Link to this contribution) 103: Schedule 5, page 116, line 8, leave out ““three-quarters”” and insert ““two-thirds”” Moved by

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c482 (Link to this contribution) 103A: Schedule 5, After ““two-thirds”” insert ““of those present and voting””

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c482 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I was rather disappointed that the Minister did not come back to the point about why the v...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c485 (Link to this contribution) 105: Clause 29, page 20, line 29, after ““area”” insert ““in England””

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c485 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not wish to move the amendment. It is wholly consequential to the parent Amendment 11...

Baroness Henig | 729 c485 (Link to this contribution) 106: Clause 29, page 20, line 30, leave out from ““panel”” to end of line 31

Baroness Henig | 729 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 116. Amendment 106 would effectively remove Schedule 6 on ...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 729 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am pleased to support Amendments 106 and 116, and I want to add my voice briefly to that...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am slightly puzzled by the Government’s stance on the question of political balance as f...

Baroness Browning | 729 c528 (Link to this contribution) 110: Clause 29, page 21, line 8, after ““Schedules”” insert ““1 (procedure for appointments of senio...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister, and I would encourage my noble friend to table an amen...

Baroness Browning | 729 c528 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hear what noble Lords have said about the use of ping-pong and the other place; I am not...

Baroness Henig | 729 c527-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have suddenly realised that some days ago I moved an amendment, did I not, about statuto...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I realise that we are stretching the rules of Report, but this is important. Presumably wh...

Baroness Browning | 729 c527 (Link to this contribution) I was referring only to the chief executive protections for discussion in another place.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my point is that the rules of ping-pong allow that to happen. You cannot simply use ping-p...

Baroness Browning | 729 c527 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not think it will be possible to come back to this matter on Third Reading. However, ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c526-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. My noble friend and I perhaps come at this from different viewpoints,...

Baroness Browning | 729 c526 (Link to this contribution) I guarantee to write to the noble Lord about this, but the principle behind it is that it is very cl...

Baroness Browning | 729 c528 (Link to this contribution) 115: Clause 29, page 21, line 19, after ““Schedule”” insert ““1,”” Amendment 115 agreed. Amendment...

Baroness Henig | 729 c538 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a problem with the response. This is a very big issue about public confidence. It i...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c536-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, for her very detailed amendment and for the care a...

Lord Shipley | 729 c535-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, parallel to our discussions on this Bill, the Localism Bill is in Committee. In that, ther...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c538 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness for that detailed question. PCCs will have a chief finance officer, with ...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c537 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minister confirm that the proposed arrangements for audit will be voluntary, in that a comm...

Baroness Henig | 729 c529-33 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 117 I shall speak also to Amendments 144, 148, 149, 150, 154, 156, 232...

Baroness Henig | 729 c528-9 (Link to this contribution) 117: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— ““Functions of police and crime panels: condu...

Lord Rosser | 729 c534-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has already been pointed out that under the current terms of the Bill, the powers of th...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 729 c533-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support some of the amendments in this group, to which I have added my name: namely, Ame...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c538 (Link to this contribution) That is precisely what Schedule 7 states.

Baroness Henig | 729 c538 (Link to this contribution) I have just been reading Schedule 7. As I said, it has an element of laissez-faire about it. If the ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c498 (Link to this contribution) I have said that I will make sure that certainly before Third Reading, and I hope within the next 48...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 729 c498 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister can give figures. I understand that there are specific circumstances to do ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c496-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again I am very disappointed that the House is not able to identify the flexibility that t...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c496 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that there is too much flexibility. The cases have been quoted to the Minister: there...

Baroness Browning | 729 c494-5 (Link to this contribution) That gives the Secretary of State, as I just described, the opportunity to ensure that the panel’s m...

Lord Beecham | 729 c494 (Link to this contribution) In the noble Baroness’s Amendment 128, does not new subsection (2B)(b) impose a condition that ““no ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c496 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the solution to that is that PCPs can also set out their own rules and practices f...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 729 c495-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the Minister has failed to see the critical difference between the proposals in this Bill ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c495 (Link to this contribution) I hate to disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, on this because I know that her motives are ...

Baroness Henig | 729 c495 (Link to this contribution) I seek genuine clarification from the Minister. She referred to the schedule that states that the ba...

Baroness Browning | 729 c525 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we do not disagree with the principle behind the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lo...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c523-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 257 to 267, which are remarkably similar to the Minister’s amen...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c526 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to understand how the process that is being described will differ from delegation, which...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 729 c498 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for agreeing that we can come back to this at Third Reading.

Baroness Henig | 729 c498 (Link to this contribution) The problem is that I certainly, speaking for myself, do not fully understand the extent of the conc...

Baroness Browning | 729 c498 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that this amendment is a major concession on the part of the Government. It is free to...

Baroness Henig | 729 c499-500 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is an extremely serious issue. It first raised its head at Second Reading when nearly...

Baroness Browning | 729 c498-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I cannot say that the Government will come back to this at Third Reading. I am happy to ta...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c522-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this group contains a considerable number of government amendments that in essence ensure ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c521-2 (Link to this contribution) 109A: Clause 29, page 21, line 7, at end insert— ““( ) A police and crime panel must— (a) review the...

Baroness Browning | 729 c576 (Link to this contribution) 155: Clause 32, page 22, line 35, at end insert— ““( ) In this section and that Schedule ““relevant ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c576-7 (Link to this contribution) 157: Schedule 7, page 131, line 36, at end insert— ““which relate to any relevant office holder.”” ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c575 (Link to this contribution) 145: Clause 30, page 21, line 44, at end insert— ““( ) If a police and crime panel requires the rele...

Baroness Browning | 729 c576 (Link to this contribution) 151: Clause 32, page 22, line 27, leave out ““police and crime commissioners”” and insert ““relevant...

Lord Faulkner of Worcester | 729 c575 (Link to this contribution) I have to advise the House that if Amendment 139 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 140 for reaso...

Baroness Browning | 729 c575 (Link to this contribution) 139: Schedule 6, page 129, leave out lines 19 to 32 and insert— ““(a) amend or otherwise modify any ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c578 (Link to this contribution) 189: Schedule 8, page 133, line 28, leave out ““constable to be chief constable until”” and insert “...

Baroness Browning | 729 c578 (Link to this contribution) 182: Clause 37, page 25, line 26, leave out ““reports”” and insert ““information”” 183: Clause 37,...

Baroness Browning | 729 c577-8 (Link to this contribution) 181: Clause 34, page 24, line 36, at end insert— ““( ) If the London Assembly requires the Deputy Ma...

Baroness Browning | 729 c577 (Link to this contribution) 172: Clause 33, page 23, line 30, at end insert— ““( ) The following provisions apply to the police ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c577 (Link to this contribution) 170: Clause 33, page 23, line 13, leave out ““Greater London Authority”” and insert ““London Assembl...

Baroness Browning | 729 c579 (Link to this contribution) 198: Clause 42, page 28, line 14, at end insert— ““( ) In a case where a deputy chief constable or a...

Baroness Browning | 729 c578 (Link to this contribution) 190: Schedule 8, page 134, line 16, leave out ““constable”” and insert ““person”” 191: Schedule 8,...

Lord Beecham | 729 c579 (Link to this contribution) 192: Schedule 8, page 135, line 16, leave out ““three-quarters”” and insert ““two-thirds”” Amendmen...

Lord Colwyn | 729 c579 (Link to this contribution) I have to advise the House that if we accept Amendment 193, I cannot call Amendment 193A for reasons...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c562 (Link to this contribution) 118: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— ““Police and crime panels in Wales Each polic...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c562-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this amendment is the parent amendment for the group, the other amendments being consequen...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c539 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that a great deal of what the noble Baroness is asking for is in regulations under previou...

Baroness Henig | 729 c539 (Link to this contribution) The problem for me is that this is like justice; it must not only be done but be seen to be done. No...

Baroness Randerson | 729 c567-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I urge the Minister to take account of the issues that have been raised by other noble Lor...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c568 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am interested in that last comment but it strikes me that retaining police authorities w...

Lord Wigley | 729 c565-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to the other amendments in the group. As we have heard, these amendment...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c566-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Lords, Lord Elystan-Morgan and Lord Wigley, for bringing this...

Baroness Randerson | 729 c568 (Link to this contribution) That was a statement made to the Assembly, but it was not the legislative consent Motion that the As...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c568 (Link to this contribution) It is just that I have a briefing here, which the noble Baroness probably has herself, which says, "...

Baroness Randerson | 729 c568 (Link to this contribution) The original plan—the legislative consent Motion—that was put to the Assembly was on the basis of th...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c568 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness is quite right. The matter that was put before the Welsh Assembly under the origi...

Baroness Randerson | 729 c568-9 (Link to this contribution) That is my recollection of the procedure: the Minister may have made a statement, but this was not a...

Baroness Morgan of Ely | 729 c569-70 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have heard today that the Welsh Assembly is not responsible for policing and, unlike so...

Baroness Browning | 729 c570-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in opening this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made a strong and persuasive ...

Lord Elystan-Morgan | 729 c572 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I most warmly and sincerely thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this little came...

Baroness Browning | 729 c572 (Link to this contribution) 120: Schedule 6, page 118, line 40, leave out ““two”” and insert ““the appropriate number of”” Amen...

Baroness Browning | 729 c572 (Link to this contribution) 122: Schedule 6, page 118, line 41, leave out ““(1)”” and insert ““(1)(a)”” Amendment 122 agreed. ...

Baroness Browning | 729 c573 (Link to this contribution) 126: Schedule 6, page 123, line 24, leave out ““two”” and insert ““the appropriate number of”” 127...

Baroness Browning | 729 c572-3 (Link to this contribution) 124: Schedule 6, page 119, line 3, at end insert— ““(2A) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b), t...

Baroness Browning | 729 c573-5 (Link to this contribution) 133: Schedule 6, page 128, line 14, at end insert— ““(ba) paragraphs 7C and 7D of Schedule 1;”” 13...

Baroness Browning | 729 c573 (Link to this contribution) 130: Schedule 6, page 127, line 11, leave out paragraph (c) 131: Schedule 6, page 127, line 15, at...

Baroness Doocey | 729 c586-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 310. The purpose of Amendment 206A is to delay the impleme...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c588-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendment for a number of reasons. First, the Bill is amazingly silent on tr...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c585 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have to say that I do not think the Minister has addressed the central problem. What he ...

Baroness Doocey | 729 c585-6 (Link to this contribution) 206A: After Clause 50, insert the following new Clause— ““Transitional arrangements (1) The provisio...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c584 (Link to this contribution) At present the Metropolitan Police Authority appoints all officers between the ranks of assistant co...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c584-5 (Link to this contribution) I stand corrected but I hold to the principle which runs through this Bill—that of the independence ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c584 (Link to this contribution) Can you tell me why it is stronger? What element have you strengthened in this Bill? Give me one exa...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c584 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord misunderstands me. I said you are asking for a much stronger position for the MOPC th...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c583 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is misunderstanding the point. At present, the visible answerability of the Commissione...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c583-4 (Link to this contribution) I take the noble Lord’s point, but these amendments are primarily concerned with the question of app...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c583 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, offered a picture of a golden age of policing accountability ...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c583 (Link to this contribution) I still hold to my view that the noble Lord is exaggerating enormously the difference between where ...

Lord Ramsbotham | 729 c581 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is it in order to ask the Minister a question? The speakers list for today gives an estima...

Lord De Mauley | 729 c581 (Link to this contribution) I wonder if I could consult with the usual channels—

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c581 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, there is no agreement except to go to 11 pm so I would have thought the n...

Lord Rosser | 729 c582-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey has drawn attention to the clauses in the Bill whi...

Baroness Browning | 729 c579 (Link to this contribution) 199: Clause 43, page 28, line 35, leave out from beginning to second ““the”” in line 36 and insert “...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c580 (Link to this contribution) 200: Clause 43, page 28, line 36, leave out from ““must”” to end of line 38 and insert ““agree that ...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c580-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 201 to 205. I share with the Government a desire to stren...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c591-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I do not have any other amendments in this group but there are also the two government ame...

Baroness Henig | 729 c592-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 231 and Amendment 234 in this group. I hope your Lordships wi...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c594 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I welcome the two government amendments, which we are glad to support. On Amendment 218, t...

Baroness Browning | 729 c594-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the House will be aware that, as originally drafted, the Bill provided that a PCC could on...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c596 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 218 wi...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c589-90 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my recollection of the transition/shadow period for the Greater London Authority was that ...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c590 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and my noble friend for raising this matter. The Gover...

Baroness Browning | 729 c590-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I reiterate what I have said in previous discussions on this subject to my noble friend La...

Baroness Doocey | 729 c591 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have listened to the Minister with a very heavy heart because, being an eternal optimist...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c591 (Link to this contribution) 218: Clause 59, page 36, line 33, at end insert— ““( ) about the regulation of spending with the int...

Lord Beecham | 729 c475 (Link to this contribution) 101: Schedule 5, page 116, line 2, at end insert— ““( ) A decision to amend or veto a proposed prece...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c480 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps I may say that from my experience the power of the Lo...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c480-1 (Link to this contribution) I take that point. The relationship between a directly elected police commissioner and the police an...

Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 729 c480 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in answering I speak to Government Amendments 103 and 192 and I thank the noble Lord, Lord...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c480 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I hesitate to intervene but the noble Lord goads me into it. The point is that the London ...

Baroness Anelay of St Johns | 729 c475 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, if noble Lords are leaving, may they do so peacefully so that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham...

Lord Beecham | 729 c475-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Chief Whip for inflicting me on the House at the earliest p...

Baroness Henig | 729 c476-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 102 and 104 in the group. As my noble friend Lord Beecham said...

Baroness Harris of Richmond | 729 c477 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have a couple of brief points to make about Amendment 102, and particularly Amendment 10...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c477-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we have had a series of debates during the passage of this Bill about the role of the poli...

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c478 (Link to this contribution) It is. Why is that? It is normally of those present and voting. It seems to me that simply by not be...

Baroness Browning | 729 c478 (Link to this contribution) Yes.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath | 729 c479 (Link to this contribution) It may help if I intervened at this stage. My assumption in drafting ““present and voting”” is that ...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c478-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I very much welcome the reduction from three-quarters to two-thirds. I think I said at an ...

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton | 729 c479-80 (Link to this contribution) I hope that when the Minister replies the point raised on substitutes will be answered very fully. A...

Baroness Hamwee | 729 c479 (Link to this contribution) I shall ponder on that. My other question, which my noble friend Lord Shipley may have asked on a pr...

Baroness Browning | 729 c579 (Link to this contribution) 193: Schedule 8, page 138, line 34, leave out from ““private,”” to ““relating”” in line 36 and inser...

Lord Harris of Haringey | 729 c583 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is confusing the Metropolitan Police Authority and the London Assembly, which at presen...

Subjects

Complaints

Conditions of employment

Devolved matters

Accountability

Audit

Council tax

Finance

Elections

Eligibility

Greater London

Misconduct

Police

Membership

Public appointments

Members

Political parties

Mayor of London

Political impartiality

Metropolitan Police

Security

Reform

Wales

Mayors

Olympic Games 2012

Police and crime commissioners

Police and crime panels

Legislation

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill 2010-12

Link

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