Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My Lords, this amendment is the parent amendment for the group, the other amendments being consequential thereto, as was Amendment 105, which I did not move. The amendments highlight the impact on Wales of Part 1. The technical effect of Amendment 118—I certainly shall not divide the House on it—would be that the authority in relation to the functions and membership of police and crime panels would pass from the body of the Bill and the schedules thereto to the Welsh Assembly, which would decide what the panels would be involved with and what their membership should be. I have been a sufficient time in the courts and in Parliament to know that to say that this is not the first choice that one would adopt in relation to this matter, nor indeed the second, is not the most impactful or safest way to open a case, but that is the proper and honest way of putting it. This amendment can be fully understood only if one appreciates from where it is coming and the direction in which it is leading. If I was asked what in my view was the ideal situation—I am pompous enough to assume for a moment that somebody would ask that question—my answer would be, most certainly, that there should be a complete devolution of police services from this Parliament to the Assembly in Cardiff. Secondly, I would say that, in addition to that, there is a fallback position which was taken up by the Welsh Assembly and which I regard as being utterly practical and meritorious. I shall deal with those matters in some little detail. On the question of devolution of authority, I would respectfully argue that it is not for Wales to show that there is some magical path that allows it to be an exception to the general provisions of the Bill. Wales is a land and nation; Scotland is a land and nation. Scotland, with a population of 5 million, has its own police services. Northern Ireland, with its population of 1.75 million, has its own police services. Your Lordships may very well say that there are very distinct historical reasons in each case, but there are distinct and historical reasons in relation to Wales. Therefore, I would say that there is a national case for the transfer and devolution—some day in the not-too-distant future, I hope—of those jurisdictions to Wales. The second point is what I would call the contiguity or borderline point. Police services do not exist in a vacuum. They link up at each stage with various other functions of a local nature. All those other relative functions in relation to Wales have already been devolved. I could name a good dozen of them, but the ones upon which I would mainly rely are community safety, youth services, youth justice, health, transport, and substance misuse. All those have boundaries where their jurisdictions are intertwined and interlocked with the police service. It is almost impossible to separate one from the other. There is a demand and a need for a total participation—and indeed, co-operation—between police authorities on the one hand and local authorities and local agencies on the other. The next reason I would rely on in relation to this matter is the attitude of the Welsh Assembly itself in this connection. As we well know, there has never been devolution of police services to Wales. In fact, when this legislation was being considered, in the late 1990s, all manner of undertakings were given with regard to concordats, as to exactly how this meshing or merger of different jurisdictions should take place. Unfortunately, it appears that none of that has ever been carried out. In the early part of January this year the Welsh Assembly asked the Communities and Culture Committee to report on the impact of this Bill on Wales. The report reflected a general tidal feeling in Wales of total disapprobation of the Bill. Practically all the evidence was in one direction, and I have no doubt that if a referendum were held in Wales it would be carried by a massive majority, very probably in favour of total devolution, but most certainly against Part 1 of the Bill. I do not in any way castigate the Minister or indeed her colleague who sits by her. I have some sympathy for them. I think that in many respects they, themselves, would probably have put together an infinitely better Bill. But I will not embarrass them on that account. I think of them as very much the same as General Sir Redvers Buller and General Sir George White, who were the two generals given the task of relieving Mafeking. It was not they who had sent the troops there. It was not they who had created the siege. But they were given the unenviable task of fighting battle after battle, ultimately to bring about the raising of that siege. That, it seems to me, is the situation in which the Minister and her colleague find themselves at the moment. The Welsh Assembly committee came to the conclusion that the Bill was utterly disastrous and irredeemable, both with regard to the idea of centring public scrutiny on a commissioner, and indeed on a police and crime panel to overlook his or her functions. It went on to make a main recommendation: "““We recommend that the Welsh Government has dialogue with the UK Government to persuade it to defer introducing those aspects of the Bill related to the abolition of police authorities, and establishment of police commissioners and police crime panels in Wales, at least until the effectiveness of their impact in England has been assessed.””" That was not a petulant reaction on the part of the Assembly Government. It was a considered, deeply analysed and well thought out reaction, bearing in mind the constitutional realities and the relationships between the two bodies. In March of this year a very substantial metamorphosis took place in the Welsh Assembly. We had a referendum to decide whether Part 4 of the Government of Wales Act 2006 should be adopted. The people of Wales espoused that proposition—as the Minister will know—by a two-to-one majority. It was as clear a verdict as one could have wished for, and its effect is twofold. It inevitably increases the dynamic of devolution in Wales. Secondly, it elevates the status of the Welsh legislature, now that it has been given wide fields—20 in all—of primary legislative responsibility, from being that of an Assembly to that of a Parliament. On that basis, I present the amendment. The case that is deployed by the Government for police and crime panels is, in the main, that the former police authorities were far removed from the public and were not associated as they might have been with local government and local agencies. I will not comment on whether that is true in England. Various surveys have been carried out. In some, only 7 or 8 per cent of people said that they knew what the police authority was about, who the chairman was or who the members were. The situation in Wales was very different. I am not sure who carried out the survey in Wales. No doubt my noble friend Lord Wigley can tell us whether it was the association of Welsh local authorities or the association of Welsh police forces. It was one or the other, or possibly both. The result in Wales was that more than 80 per cent of people knew exactly what police authorities were about and appreciated the issues that they faced. Therefore, the idea of remoteness and misunderstanding simply does not apply to Wales. In addition, the record of Welsh police forces in relation to gelling with local authorities and other local agencies is noble and splendid. Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary carried out a broad and deep survey in 2009 and 2010. It surveyed no less than half the police forces of England and Wales—22 in all. It surveyed two out of the four Welsh forces—the two larger ones, in South Wales and Gwent. It gave them a clean bill of health in relation to that phenomenon and said that their capacity to gel in a constructive way with those bodies was unexceptionable. Therefore, where is the case for bringing those Welsh police forces into the ambit of the Bill? I would be shocked out of my skin if the Government, for all their charity, were to accept the amendment. It would enable the Welsh Assembly to determine the exact functions of that body. My guess—and I am no prophet—is that the functions would not be a million miles away from those exercised by police authorities at the moment. No irrefutable case has been made for change, but it would be something that the Welsh people, through their Assembly and legislature, would decide. On that basis, I end by making this plea to the Minister and to Her Majesty's Government. Wales is facing a new chapter in its constitutional history. The nation, which is 1,500 years old, faces new challenges and new prospects. It would set the seal on a relationship that is wholesome, chivalrous and noble if the Government were now to say, ““We have the sensitivity, chivalry and understanding to take on board the case that has been made on behalf of Wales””. I beg to move.