Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

My Lords, in opening this debate, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, made a strong and persuasive case for the devolution of policing to the Government of Wales. As we know, the reality is that policing is a reserved matter under the devolution settlement, but there are related matters that are devolved. I recognise that the Welsh Government remain opposed in principle to the abolition of police authorities in Wales and are against the proposal to replace them with directly elected police and crime commissioners. Although I touched on this in Committee, it might be of help to the House if I outline the history of what has happened and where I see us now. In the absence of an agreement, with the Bill proceeding through its stages in your Lordships’ House, and with policing being a reserved matter, the UK Government, including the Secretary of State for Wales, remain of the opinion that it is not in the interests of the people of Wales to have a different governance and scrutiny structure for their forces. As I have explained to the House before, we do not believe that there can be two models of governance for a police service whose officers and assets so regularly cross the regional boundary between England and Wales in pursuit of making our communities safer and tackling crime. When the original Bill entered the other place, there were certain elements that affected the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales. This was specifically with regard to the provision for police and crime panels to be formed and maintained by local authorities in the police area. As noble Lords are aware, the Welsh Assembly has legislative competence over oversight and scrutiny committees of local authorities. Therefore, in respecting the devolution settlement, the Government agreed with the view of the Welsh Assembly Government that the consent of the Assembly would be required to legislate on establishing police and crime panels in the form set out in the original Bill. My ministerial colleagues in the Home Office and the Cabinet sought to address this by offering the Welsh Assembly Government the power to appoint a representative to the police and crime panels in Wales, and to afford that member full voting rights. This was something that my noble friend referred to. It was a significant step in fostering a closer working relationship with the devolved landscape. In addition, due to the unique funding stream that the Welsh Assembly Government affords to community safety partnerships and the legislative competence over social justice and community engagement, the Government offered provision for police and crime panels in Wales to have an additional veto to those in England. This veto would have enabled the panel to require the PCC to come to the panel for its consent if the PCC intended to merge community safety partnerships in Wales, or require them to submit a report. This not only protected the policy and financial interests of the Welsh Assembly Government but fostered a stronger working relationship between the PCC and the Government in Cardiff via the panel. The Welsh Government proposed a Motion to the Assembly to support the Government’s negotiated solution in respect of the status of police and crime panels but it was defeated. It is regrettable that the then Government in Cardiff abstained from a vote that, if passed, would have strengthened their voice in policing governance. Nevertheless, the Government have respected the Assembly’s decision. Therefore, we have amended the Bill to give the Secretary of State, rather than local authorities, the power to form police and crime panels in Wales. These panels will not fall within local government structures, but the Bill seeks to ensure that the panels are made up of local elected representatives, invited to form such a body at the request of the Secretary of State. We have also amended the Bill to ensure that the provisions on community safety partnerships do not touch on matters in respect of which Welsh Ministers have functions and responsibilities. The Bill enables the Secretary of State, rather than local authorities, to form police and crime panels in Wales. This power is the same as in England, where there is a backstop power if any local authorities are either unwilling or unable to appoint representatives to their local police and crime panel. The police and crime panel is a vital part of the new landscape. It will play an important role in scrutinising the commissioner. The panel will challenge and support the commissioner in the execution of his or her duties. Its work will be transparent and driven by the need to ensure positive outcomes for the public. The Government have attempted to give the National Assembly and its Government a role in the panels, which they have rejected. There is a potential danger in this specific amendment that the National Assembly for Wales will not appoint a PCP and leave a PCC without the necessary checks and balances. The Bill seeks to secure effective and efficient policing in the whole of England and Wales. The fact that policing is a reserved matter is something that we all have to respect. In the context of this part of the Bill, I cannot, as I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, move on to what may happen in the future. In taking this Bill through Report stage, I have to deal with reality as it is. However, I say to all noble Lords who have spoken on this that I accept that it is a sensitive matter. Discussions are still going on. We shall not just look at it as an impasse, shrug our shoulders and move on. We will continue those negotiations to try to reach an agreement on this part of the Bill. Although I am obliged to reject these amendments and move the Bill on because we are now on Report, I remain open to continuing discussions with any noble Lords who wish to see me at any time. On that basis, I ask noble Lords to withdraw the amendment.