UK Parliament / Open data

European Union (Amendment) Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 22 April 2008, in the House of Lords.
European Union (Amendment) Bill. Lords Committee stage first day. Part 1 of 2 records.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
700 c1388-456 
Session
2007-08
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Procedure
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
European Union (Amendment) Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 40-EN also published.
Wednesday, 12 March 2008
Bills
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Owen | 700 c1447 (Link to this contribution) On page 58 of its third report of Session 2007-08, on foreign policy aspects of the Lisbon treaty, t...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1449 (Link to this contribution) Will the Minster clarify the position of the high representative in relation to agreed foreign polic...

Show all contributions (148)
Lord Lea of Crondall | 700 c1447 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may make a suggestion. It seems to me that there are so many different types of double-hat...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1447 (Link to this contribution) I think I am grateful to my noble friend. The issue he raises is absolutely right. In a sense, we ar...
Lord Dykes | 700 c1450-1 (Link to this contribution) As the noble Baroness the Leader of the House was enunciating those propositions about the terms and...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1450 (Link to this contribution) It will not affect the relationship with the Security Council. As happens now with Mr Solana there a...
Lord Roper | 700 c1451 (Link to this contribution) It might help the Committee to know that Sub-Committee C of the European Union Committee is going to...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1451 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is absolutely correct; it would indeed be improper, and we have made that clear. From...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) According to the passage that the Minister read out, the high commissioner for foreign affairs is, a...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) I will have to check whether an official said that. I am going, first, on the conclusions of the com...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) I say on the basis of a lot of experience that you do not have to believe every word that a Commissi...
Lord Waddington | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) I do not have the page before me, but in the EU Committee report which we debated at the same time a...
Baroness Ludford | 700 c1447 (Link to this contribution) As I am, as the Minister pointed out, an MEP, I should have declared an interest. One safeguard agai...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) Any future double-hatting would require a specific amendment to the treaty that is agreed by all nat...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) It does not really work for one. The proposal is that we have a high representative who becomes the ...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1430-1 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord makes the wonderful universal error of confusing Governments and elite groups with th...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1430 (Link to this contribution) With respect, that was not the point that I was making. Since the change of policy towards the Europ...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1429 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is quite right—it is the wrong word. It slipped out. I should not have used the word ...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 700 c1429 (Link to this contribution) Would the noble Lord like to reconsider his use of the word ““diktat””? The European Court of Justic...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1428-9 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to enter that debate now, but it is probably correct that referenda, as the previous P...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1428 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord agree that no referendum can take away the right of parliamentary decision? We a...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1430 (Link to this contribution) I am saying that the people had an opportunity at a general election to discuss and debate it very f...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1430 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord seriously suggesting that the 1992 election was held on the issue of Maastricht?
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1429-30 (Link to this contribution) Another very relevant point. Perhaps the right word that we are groping for is ““ruling””. What I am...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1429 (Link to this contribution) Surely a judgment against which there is no appeal is a diktat.
Lord Kinnock | 700 c1428 (Link to this contribution) I can make the response immediately. On his terms, we agreed to differ. I am irreducibly against rob...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1427-8 (Link to this contribution) If your Lordships settle for that bargain, I shall do so as well. I shall quote from the excellent r...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1428 (Link to this contribution) Nothing that the noble Lord says surprises me in the very slightest degree. I am sure that views hav...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 700 c1426 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister says that Community law must be implemented in the same way in every state within ...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1426 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may clarify what the noble Baroness the Lord President is saying. My Amendment No. 125 ref...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1426 (Link to this contribution) The Charter of Fundamental Rights does not create new laws; it does not say that there is a justicia...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Baroness the Lord President for setting out frankly and openly her view of how we ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1426-7 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that. We are a part of the European Union. The noble Lord described it as if it were...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1427 (Link to this contribution) I did not. I would hate for the noble Lord to think that I immediately broke my truce. What I think ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1424-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord and I may be talking at slightly cross purposes. I am suggesting that, within the Lis...
Lord Owen | 700 c1424 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said that we would be doing this for the first time, but that is not the case. The Euro...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1424 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord was not saying anything; he was nodding. By that, I thought he was agreeing with what...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1423-4 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the Minister did not misunderstand me. I was not saying that if we were to have a refere...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1422-3 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is completely and utterly wrong in that. The week before last, during the Recess, I s...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1422 (Link to this contribution) I am just taking in what the noble Baroness said. Is she seriously suggesting that we should have a ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1421-2 (Link to this contribution) We have debated this amendment for two hours and 14 minutes. I begin by saying that I have been look...
Lord Waddington | 700 c1421 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for not being present at the beginning of this debate. There is one point which is it im...
Lord Alton of Liverpool | 700 c1420-1 (Link to this contribution) With his usual distinction, the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, has done the service to the Committee of t...
Lord Kinnock | 700 c1419-20 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord must have suffered untypically from a momentary lapse in concentration, because I jus...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 700 c1418 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord obviously was not listening when I read out the quotations from all 26 heads of state...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1419 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord deal with a point made by my noble friend? He has described how the treaty is no...
Lord Kinnock | 700 c1418-9 (Link to this contribution) I am somewhat unused to, or perhaps bemused by, the inclination of the more profound and chronic Eur...
Lord Harrison | 700 c1416 (Link to this contribution) I hope the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will concede that an element of the original constitutional tre...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1416 (Link to this contribution) I think the noble Lord may have misunderstood what I said. I referred to the Government’s line on th...
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 700 c1417-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, has a very beguiling bedside manner, but I fear that I cannot follo...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 700 c1416-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not often treasure the words of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, but I shall treasure h...
Lord Harrison | 700 c1416 (Link to this contribution) The maths admit what I was going on to say which is that the element of revision—which would be, in ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1445 (Link to this contribution) I have the consolidated text before me. If I look at the Treaty on the European Union and go to Arti...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1445 (Link to this contribution) The UK Government do not agree with double-hatting or allowing two of those three positions to be pu...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1445-6 (Link to this contribution) It continues: "““Members of the Commission shall neither seek nor take instructions from any governm...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1446 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to my noble friend. As far as we and our lawyers are concerned, it is very clear....
Lord Willoughby de Broke | 700 c1445 (Link to this contribution) This is a self-amending treaty under the passerelle arrangements, which we will discuss later. Is it...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1444-5 (Link to this contribution) It does not have a legal status. That’s it—it does not have a legal status, full stop. The noble Lo...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1444 (Link to this contribution) They do not lack status in the United Kingdom. I am aware of the legislation that the United Kingdom...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1441-3 (Link to this contribution) Again, we have had a very interesting and important debate. I begin where the noble Lord, Lord Waddi...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1443 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Baroness. That would be very helpful.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1443 (Link to this contribution) Again, I apologise for not dealing with the matter there and then.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1443 (Link to this contribution) That would be even better. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, asked specifically about an index. I wonder...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1443 (Link to this contribution) I was aware of the document to which the noble Baroness refers but I was simply asking for an index ...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1443-4 (Link to this contribution) In those famous words, ““I shall see what I can do””, but I am not sure about running it up overnigh...
Lord Waddington | 700 c1440-1 (Link to this contribution) This amendment highlights a highly unsatisfactory situation. I could not possibly vote for it, for s...
Lord Waddington | 700 c1441 (Link to this contribution) I do not want a constitution but even less do I want half a constitution. If we are to have thrust o...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 700 c1441 (Link to this contribution) Is the noble Lord not asking in fact for a constitution? Looking at the President of the United Stat...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1440 (Link to this contribution) We read all sorts of things and we know that sometimes they do not mean exactly what they say. If I ...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1439 (Link to this contribution) Like the noble Lords, Lord Blackwell and Lord Pearson, I am a bit concerned that the questions in th...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1440 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord looks at Article 1(18) of the treaty he will find it clear that the President of t...
Baroness Ludford | 700 c1439 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can help to answer one of the questions that has been asked about the powers of the Europe...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1439 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Baroness. We will come back to this on Amendment No. 14.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1438 (Link to this contribution) I just want to help the noble Lord. I can give the source; it is the Open Europe briefings. I have t...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1438-9 (Link to this contribution) At the moment, I cannot remember whether that was my sole source, but I will come back to it. That r...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1438 (Link to this contribution) Of course. At the moment, I was merely posing a question. When we come to that, I will be happy to p...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1436 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord’s intervention illustrates exactly the danger of not having it settled. The relations...
Lord Owen | 700 c1436-7 (Link to this contribution) I seek clarification. I am afraid that I am not up to date with the procedures, but a report on Euro...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1437 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, because he raised some interesting questions; but t...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1435 (Link to this contribution) I support these important amendments. As a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Europea...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1435-6 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord talks of the matter being settled, but does he agree that much will depend on the per...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1437-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, has just epitomised the project of European Union; it is all right i...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1431-3 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 4: 4: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause— ““Treaty of Lisbon: cla...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1452 (Link to this contribution) I hope I have not missed the noble Baroness’s reply in her answer, but I think she dismissed the ide...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1452 (Link to this contribution) There is a proposal for a directive on healthcare, but it is nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty. I...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1451-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am sure that that will be replicated in other sub-committees of t...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1453-5 (Link to this contribution) I think that it is high time that we gave the noble Baroness a break. The sheer length of her exposi...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 700 c1455-6 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for intervening, but we have a couple of minutes before we break. We on these Benches en...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1453 (Link to this contribution) The noble Baroness would not put direct tax into that category, would she? Can she assure us that th...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1453 (Link to this contribution) I am always hesitant to say anything to the noble Lord when I do not quite know his source. Often in...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1452 (Link to this contribution) There is also the question of whether the treaty could lead to the harmonisation of direct taxes. Fi...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1452-3 (Link to this contribution) That is an almost philosophical debate, which is why I was going to save it for the next big debate ...
Lord Bach | 700 c1456 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move that the House do now resume. In moving this Motion, I suggest that the Committee does...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1456 (Link to this contribution) It is a little late in the timing, and certainly in my speech, to branch off into political philosop...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1389 (Link to this contribution) I have plenty more here but I shall spare them that. Let us get to the amendment.
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1388-9 (Link to this contribution) moved Amendment No. 2: 2: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, at end insert ““which amends and alters consti...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1388 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill. Moved acc...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1390-2 (Link to this contribution) I certainly intend to do that during the Committee and Report stages of the Bill. We have plenty of ...
Lord Lea of Crondall | 700 c1389 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord wants to make points of that ilk, will he tell us what a Conservative Government w...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 700 c1398-9 (Link to this contribution) I concede that we are at the warm-up stage of the Committee and that we will perhaps move with sligh...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1399 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has left his less than flattering allusion to the UK Independence Party, of which I h...
Lord Campbell of Alloway | 700 c1396-7 (Link to this contribution) I would not have intervened but for the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, intervened. With resp...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1397-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Lester, is absolutely right. The European Communities Act 1972 fundamentally al...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 700 c1396 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord and Edward Heath performed a masterly exercise in their short Bill in pro...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 700 c1395-6 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Owen, is an enthusiast, as I am, for the political novels...
Lord Owen | 700 c1393-5 (Link to this contribution) I support the amendment. It does not matter, I suppose, if it is not put in the Bill, but its intent...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1392-3 (Link to this contribution) It is not actually a simple question. I would not expect a simple question from such a learned and a...
Lord Hannay of Chiswick | 700 c1392 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving way, but can he answer a simple question for me? Why did the Gover...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 700 c1404-5 (Link to this contribution) I declare an interest as having spent a large part of my life working on European affairs in the Uni...
Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 700 c1404 (Link to this contribution) It was not only the David Stoddarts of this world but also the Neil Kinnocks who had that point of v...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1404 (Link to this contribution) I am sure we all recognise that my noble friend Lord Kinnock has shown great maturity as he has aged...
Lord Kinnock | 700 c1404 (Link to this contribution) What I did was much simpler than what my noble friend suggests. I heeded the words of a former Membe...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1404 (Link to this contribution) I do not wish to delay the House much longer. I have only two more points to make. The noble Lord, L...
Lord Lester of Herne Hill | 700 c1402 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene, and for his reference to me. Would he ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1401-2 (Link to this contribution) I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, that his plea for proper line-by-line scr...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1403-4 (Link to this contribution) I had not really intended to intervene in this debate; I thought that it was going to be a rather ca...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1402-3 (Link to this contribution) I would be more persuaded by the noble Lord’s suggestion that we transcend party advantage if his pa...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 700 c1400-1 (Link to this contribution) I should have congratulated the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, on the new addition to his part...
Lord Lamont of Lerwick | 700 c1411-2 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the noble Baroness for interrupting her flow. On her point about the comparison with ...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 700 c1411 (Link to this contribution) The trouble with that is that I think that someone who tells a lie is a liar. I do not know how the ...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 700 c1405-6 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to be a friend of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, while not being a ...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1405 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the noble Lord on being the only Member of your Lordships’ House to declare that he i...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 700 c1410-1 (Link to this contribution) I did not call anyone a liar; I said it was a lie to the British people to say that they would get a...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 700 c1410 (Link to this contribution) I found two contributions to today’s debate on the amendments very persuasive. First, I thought that...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1408-10 (Link to this contribution) It may be helpful if I follow my noble friend Lord Blackwell as my name is on Amendment No. 126, whi...
Lord Blackwell | 700 c1406-7 (Link to this contribution) I support my noble friend’s amendment and speak to Amendment No. 125 in my name, which is in the sam...
Lord Harrison | 700 c1415-6 (Link to this contribution) I hope noble Lords will forgive me for absenting myself for 20 minutes while I attended the European...
Lord Howell of Guildford | 700 c1416 (Link to this contribution) I shall come back to these matters later, but I am afraid it is just more arithmetic. If 242 out of ...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 700 c1412 (Link to this contribution) I am aware of the last two points, but I was not aware of the first. I would like to check that befo...
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 700 c1412 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord goes any further, that will not do either, but I am sure that we will come to ...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1412 (Link to this contribution) Could we compromise with ““breaking a promise””? Would that do?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean | 700 c1412 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. For the reasons that I explained clearly at Second Reading—the noble Lord was in his p...
Lord Pearson of Rannoch | 700 c1412 (Link to this contribution) This is not Second Reading. Surely the noble Baroness accepts that there is something in the cumulat...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1413-4 (Link to this contribution) Answering that specific question, I had the honour to be a member of Sub-Committee C of the European...
Baroness Park of Monmouth | 700 c1413 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a very brief intervention. Is it not the case that relinquishing full control of our ...
Lord Tomlinson | 700 c1418 (Link to this contribution) Will the noble Lord once and for all understand that the promise of a referendum was on the original...
Baroness Ashton of Upholland | 700 c1447-9 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and that rather goes back to what is in this as well, which is why I went back to the treaty...
Lord Owen | 700 c1445 (Link to this contribution) One of the reasons why this has caused concern is that the Dutch Government—on exactly the same word...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 700 c1438 (Link to this contribution) That is an interesting statement. Could the noble Lord, before we discuss the CFSP and defence dimen...
Lord Anderson of Swansea | 700 c1433 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord made a number of important points. It is absolutely correct for him to say that there...
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie | 700 c1414-5 (Link to this contribution) I hope that today, or at some future date the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats will combine to...
Lord Wallace of Saltaire | 700 c1433-4 (Link to this contribution) I preface my remarks on the amendment with a few remarks about how we conduct ourselves in Committee...
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European Union (Amendment) Bill 2007-08
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