European Union (Amendment) Bill

Again, we have had a very interesting and important debate. I begin where the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, ended. I think that close study of the treaty will demonstrate that these questions are not left unanswered in the way that he implied. I know that, like me, the noble Lord had a late night last night but I hope that he will be able to go back through the proposals in the treaty and see that some of the detail is more coloured-in than he indicated. In our deliberations on this group of amendments, I think we all agree that it is very important to continue the current scrutiny and, as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, says in his report from the European Union Committee, to consider how best to take forward some of the proposals in the treaty—particularly, as I indicated earlier, in relation to the role of Parliament. As the noble Lord, Lord Owen, suggested, we have a system for reporting back to Parliament. It takes place after every European Council meeting, although I accept that doing so after the event is not necessarily what noble Lords are seeking. There is correspondence with the committees before every Council of Ministers meeting and there is a six-monthly White Paper, to which I think the noble Lord, Lord Owen, referred, on forthcoming developments in the European Union, normally looking ahead to the next presidency. Of course, all forward-looking work programmes—the five-year programme and annual work programme from the Commission and so on—are deposited so that they can be scrutinised. Speaking from experience, I can say that Ministers are regularly invited to appear before Select Committees and sub-committees in order to describe and discuss particular points of interest of aspects of negotiations that are under way. Those discussions—again, I speak from personal experience—do not last for minutes but for hours as we take great note of, and scrutinise, the issues that are currently before the individual councils. I pay tribute to the members of the committee whom I have appeared before. I take issue with a proposition underpinning the amendments which suggests that there are articles that require further negotiation. That is not the case. No articles in the treaty of Lisbon require further negotiation. I have already indicated that I spent three days in Brussels during the recess, when I discussed with the head of the Council’s Legal Service, Jean-Claude Piris, the Secretary-General of the Commission, Catherine Day, and others their views on the treaty and on the future. What was striking about these discussions was that not only did these people think that the treaty addresses far better some of the questions that have reasonably been raised about how to ensure that the European Union delivers for its citizens but they also believed that it sets a proper and, they would argue, lasting institutional framework. There was no appetite at all for further treaty negotiations. I turn to the specific points that have been raised. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, who, as a Member of the European Parliament, has great experience of the European Court of Justice. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Owen, that this is a very important issue, and later we will be able to have much chunkier discussions about the ECJ. I know that there will be a lot of interest in aspects of foreign policy, about which the noble Lord, Lord Owen, is particularly concerned, and justice and home affairs issues with the collapse of Pillar 3, and there will be an opportunity to discuss the opt-ins for the UK more fully. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, between now and the next Committee sitting, with a copy placed in the Library for all noble Lords who have participated in the debate, setting out what I consider to be the role of the European Court of Justice. I do not suggest that in order to evade debate—far from it—but to provide a backdrop to the discussion which the noble Lord, Lord Owen, in particular, and others can use as a template in taking our discussions further. I should be very happy to do that if it would be helpful. I see several noble Lords nodding, so I shall ensure that it is done. I realise that I did not answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, about the two articles that are different. The evidence that I have is from Essex University, which talks about 35 differences between the two treaties. I do not have the documentation in front of me and so I propose to share it with the noble Lord and take it from there. I am conscious that he was very specific about articles and I have been very specific about differences.