European Union (Amendment) Bill

The noble Lord is completely and utterly wrong in that. The week before last, during the Recess, I spent three days in Brussels talking to a variety of people and having many conversations about the treaty. Obviously I have had the opportunity to obtain information through our Foreign and Commonwealth Office and my fellow Ministers about the views of many others. My point was meant to be more substantial than the one for which noble Lord has given me credit. I do not believe that it will necessarily help our colleagues and other noble Lords who are looking at this debate and looking at the substance of the treaty if all that happens is that we read out quotes or parts of quotes from a variety of different leaders who are not here to explain the context of what they said or, indeed, what happened next. If other noble Lords choose to do that, it will be fine. I was merely saying that, for my part, in looking at the questions that are to be raised in this Committee stage of the debate—in delving through, at the request of the noble Lord’s Front Bench, a line-by-line examination—I feel it much more important that those who have scrutinised the treaty as it stands now are best placed to be quoted in terms of what is being suggested within it. If the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, wishes me to revert to my 50 pages of quotes, I shall be very happy to do so, but I am not sure that noble Lords will find us trading quotes any more helpful than listening to noble Lords debate the issues from their knowledge and background. That is the point I wish to make. As I said, I intend for today’s purposes to focus on what is in this group of amendments. That is not to shy away from the broader discussions that have been raised. We were in danger of moving into a second Second Reading debate, but there will be many opportunities to discuss the issues. One can see from the amendments that have been tabled that there will be many opportunities to look at the issues about which noble Lords are very concerned. I expect that on one of our days in Committee there will be a particular focus on the question of a referendum. The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, has already tabled amendments, for example, and there may well be others by now. This is a consequence of the last clause in the Bill, where the commencement date will give us an opportunity to debate the issue. I am not moving away from that but I am not prepared to turn it into a Second Reading debate. Noble Lords who did not hear what I said at Second Reading are very welcome to read it; it was an extraordinary debate of 12 and three-quarter hours. Today I want to begin the process of dissection; of looking at the individual issues that have been raised. This is notwithstanding the strength of feeling—which I absolutely understand—of noble Lords who wish to raise other issues as well. In this group of amendments—I am grateful to all noble Lords who have talked to me about groupings and so on, and we will continue that dialogue, too—we are challenging what we saw in the 1972 Act, which is about the primacy of European Union law. When we gave effect to that in 1972, it was already well established. It was something that those involved at the time recognised was important, in order to ensure that we had uniform application of the operation of the single market. If we undid that underpinning point about primacy from 1972, we would fundamentally and radically change our relationship with Europe; indeed, we would change the way that Europe operated. Parliament, of course, remains sovereign. It can choose to repeal the 1972 Act and the application of the primacy of European Union law. There may be noble Lords who wish it would do that, but the consequence, in my view, is that that would have to go hand in hand with leaving the European Union. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, agrees with me on that, and indeed may agree that some noble Lords would wish to see that happen. Let us be clear that that would indeed be the logical outcome of moving away from the current position.