UK Parliament / Open data

Treaty of Lisbon (No. 5)

Debates on treaty on Wednesday, 20 February 2008, in the House of Commons, led by David Miliband.
Debate on a motion to approve the Lisbon treaty (Cm 7294). Provisions concerning foreign, security and defence policy. Fifth day debate. Amendment negatived on division (156 votes to 346). Main question agreed to on division (337 votes to 163). [Relevent document: Third Report from the Foreign Affairs Committee of Session 2007-08, Foreign Policy Aspects of the Lisbon Treaty, HC 120-I.]
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
472 c369-430 
Session
2007-08
Department
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty establishing the European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community, including the Protocols and Final Act with Declarations. (Lisbon 2007).
Monday, 17 December 2007
Command papers
House of Commons
Foreign policy aspects of the Lisbon Treaty. Foreign Affairs Select Committee third report in 2 volumes with proceedings, evidence (HC 16 ii-iv 2006-07 not printed separately) and appendices.
Wednesday, 16 January 2008
Parliamentary committees
House of Commons
Proceeding contributions
Speaker | 472 c369 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Richm...
Speaker | 472 c430 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is quite correct. All the amendments before the Committee are extremely important...

Show all contributions (167)
Jim Murphy | 472 c421-2 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary dealt with that earlier. The Foreign Affairs Committee al...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c430 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Within the constraints laid down by the business motion, wh...
Jim Murphy | 472 c421 (Link to this contribution) I will give way, for the last time.
Jim Murphy | 472 c420 (Link to this contribution) I acknowledge that the hon. Gentleman was not seeking to catch my eye, but I have made a habit of tr...
Desmond Swayne | 472 c420 (Link to this contribution) The weakness of the Minister's argument is that even if he is right about speaking with 27 voices, t...
Jim Murphy | 472 c421 (Link to this contribution) The Conservative policy on Europe reflects two things: how consistent the hon. Gentleman has been, a...
William Cash | 472 c421 (Link to this contribution) It is a measure of Conservative party unity that we all agree that the way things are being done und...
Jim Murphy | 472 c420 (Link to this contribution) I want to make a little bit of progress; I will give way again if time allows. I strongly believe t...
Jim Murphy | 472 c421 (Link to this contribution) I will happily give way again to the hon. Lady if she wishes. I was actually quoting the Maastricht ...
Denis MacShane | 472 c414 (Link to this contribution) I am content to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Congleton (Ann Winterton). I shall read it ...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c420 (Link to this contribution) I was not asking the Minister to give way, but he has kindly offered. The position as regards Russia...
Jim Murphy | 472 c419-20 (Link to this contribution) Britain is much more able to exert influence on Zimbabwe when we work with 26 other member states. T...
Ann Winterton | 472 c419 (Link to this contribution) From a sitting position, I said that the EU approach has not been successful in Zimbabwe in any way....
Jim Murphy | 472 c419 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted to have another opportunity to wind up a debate on the Lisbon treaty. Today's debate ...
Liam Fox | 472 c417-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend makes an important point. In today's debate, several elements have been mentioned tha...
William Cash | 472 c417 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the essence of this problem is not a question of isolationism, but th...
Liam Fox | 472 c415-7 (Link to this contribution) Meanwhile, back in this universe. Laughter.] It is easy in debates of this nature to get caught up ...
Denis MacShane | 472 c414-5 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way, because I have only four minutes in which to speak. The right hon. and learne...
Ann Winterton | 472 c413-4 (Link to this contribution) I will not, because of the time. What we can be sure of is that the last Prime Minister lost intere...
Stuart Bell | 472 c407-8 (Link to this contribution) There are 21 member states in the European Union that are also members of NATO. In the situation tha...
Stuart Bell | 472 c408 (Link to this contribution) That is true, but the point I made about Iran was that the actions taken by the three Ministers were...
Mark Pritchard | 472 c408 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman's example of Iran is not a good one. In fact, it underlines the disunity within E...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c410-1 (Link to this contribution) For the record, I should like to reaffirm my belief that we ought to have a referendum on this matte...
Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom | 472 c408-10 (Link to this contribution) I take a simple view on European matters: we are asked to adopt a treaty that brings about a constit...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c411-2 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, but there are still questions for the Conservatives to answer. I want to raise a couple of ...
Stuart Bell | 472 c411 (Link to this contribution) Did not the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) give the game away when he said that h...
Ann Winterton | 472 c412-3 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart). May I suggest to h...
Stuart Bell | 472 c406-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to follow the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Ri...
William Cash | 472 c407 (Link to this contribution) My concern is that the hon. Gentleman is forgetting that there is, effectively, a mutual defence cla...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c403-5 (Link to this contribution) I must have that discussion with the right hon. Gentleman, too, because one of the problems that has...
Denis MacShane | 472 c403 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but does not he realise the damage that he does t...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c403 (Link to this contribution) I am not referring to the commissioners, but to the president of the European Council. If one seeks ...
Lord Lilley | 472 c403 (Link to this contribution) The commissioners have no vote when they are in a Council meeting, but I am sure that my right hon. ...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c406 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, but I am running out of time and therefore cannot give way to my hon. Friend. Foreign p...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c405 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend may be correct, but the point of aspiring to have statesmen rather than politicians i...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c405 (Link to this contribution) Is not the problem the fact that the institutional frameworks that have been created for a common fo...
Ed Davey | 472 c398-9 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman's interventions are always very amusing. We broadly welcome the Lisbon tre...
Simon Burns | 472 c399 (Link to this contribution) On the question of inconsistency, what does the hon. Gentleman say to his senior colleagues, and som...
Ed Davey | 472 c398 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that they are exactly the same, and I did not say that. I campaigned for a referendu...
Denis MacShane | 472 c398 (Link to this contribution) Was the hon. Gentleman in the House when the shadow Defence Secretary, who was for about six months ...
Ed Davey | 472 c397 (Link to this contribution) I am not breaking my pledge because I will be backing a referendum on whether we are in or out. That...
Simon Burns | 472 c397-8 (Link to this contribution) Could the hon. Gentleman just for once, and uncharacteristically as a Liberal Democrat, be honest? I...
Simon Burns | 472 c397 (Link to this contribution) If all the changes are so minor and modest, why is the hon. Gentleman breaking his pledge, made to h...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c403 (Link to this contribution) I must begin with a confession. When I addressed the House on Second Reading, I sought to reassure c...
Edward O'Hara | 472 c401-2 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to share in the poignancy of the act of apostasy of my right hon. Friend the Member...
Ed Davey | 472 c399-401 (Link to this contribution) I would say to them that they should ignore everything that the hon. Gentleman ever says. It is int...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Ed Davey | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) No. My old scout leader had a great capacity for telling scary ghost stories around the camp fire, f...
Baroness Browning | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. Gentleman will reconsider his remarks about people, some of whom are still aliv...
Ed Davey | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady has shown how out of touch she is; I was clearly talking about the programme ““Dad's A...
George Howarth | 472 c394 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure to be disturbed by the hon. Member for Macclesfield. My final point is that...
Ed Davey | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) began by parading his histo...
Ed Davey | 472 c396 (Link to this contribution) We certainly agree with most of our colleagues in the Brussels Parliament. I am sure that there are ...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c395 (Link to this contribution) I urge the hon. Gentleman to be cautious when using the word ““modest””; ““modest”” proposals have a...
Ed Davey | 472 c396-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will have to wait and see how we vote on the night. However, what is interesting—...
Mark Harper | 472 c396 (Link to this contribution) On the subject of clarifying confusing matters, can the hon. Gentleman confirm what the leader of th...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c390 (Link to this contribution) Yes, absolutely, although I hope that the hon. Lady will join Conservative Members in the Lobby to t...
Tobias Ellwood | 472 c392 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a difference between peacekeeping and war fighting, an...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c392-3 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is probably right about that. He made that point earlier in the debate to good effect...
Ed Davey | 472 c391 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Can he point to...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c391-2 (Link to this contribution) We think that there is no need for a treaty, particularly when it comes to foreign policy, as I poin...
George Howarth | 472 c394 (Link to this contribution) If I have time, I intend to speak about what we can learn from opinion polls. I welcome the eventua...
Bob Spink | 472 c394 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman thinks that no one disagrees with that. Is he aware of the ICN poll which s...
George Howarth | 472 c393-4 (Link to this contribution) It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague), who demonstr...
Speaker | 472 c393 (Link to this contribution) Order. I should remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a limit of seven minutes on Back-Bench ...
Speaker | 472 c394 (Link to this contribution) Order. The right hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) should not be distur...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c386 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman had better take that up with his colleague Mr. Andrew Duff. As I mentioned a mome...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c386 (Link to this contribution) I am sure the right hon. Gentleman agrees that some changes need to be made. The history of the Iraq...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c386-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not think it would have been necessary to pass this treaty for the Council of Ministers to be a...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 472 c387 (Link to this contribution) Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Foreign Office has already nominated 25 people to work in the...
William Cash | 472 c389 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is giving a brilliant exposition of the position. Does he agree that the contex...
Denis MacShane | 472 c390 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is extraordinarily kind. We have Rotherham connections. In an article in th...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c389 (Link to this contribution) I think that that is the intention of many of the drafters of the constitution that has become the t...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c390 (Link to this contribution) Do I therefore take it that any future Conservative Government would commit themselves to introducin...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c390 (Link to this contribution) I am only pointing out that there are many aspects of the treaty to which the right hon. Gentleman w...
Joan Walley | 472 c378 (Link to this contribution) I would be grateful if the Foreign Secretary could give a little more clarification about how the ne...
David Miliband | 472 c378-9 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my hon. Friend and I can both read the publication and then compare notes. My hon. Friend t...
William Cash | 472 c379 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary referred to the exceptions where the ECJ has a role, and I accept, as the Euro...
David Miliband | 472 c379 (Link to this contribution) I want to do so. The hon. Gentleman caught me halfway through my explanation of the ECJ's role. The ...
William Cash | 472 c379 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately, the Foreign Secretary's Bill excludes CFSP from implementation into UK law. It follow...
David Miliband | 472 c379 (Link to this contribution) I do not accept that those things are impossible to reconcile because they are doing different tasks...
Denis MacShane | 472 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) Since 1973, under successive Governments, Britain has sent some of its best brains from different De...
David Miliband | 472 c380 (Link to this contribution) Mt right hon. Friend makes a good point. I can assure him that when it is in the interests of the in...
David Miliband | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) The difference in the posts is that the precision with which the new treaty defines the role of the ...
James Clappison | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) I shall put this next question slowly for the benefit of the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. Ma...
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) The posts are different. They differ in the relationships in respect of the Council and the Commissi...
David Miliband | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) When I say there is something different and the hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary position that t...
Mark Francois | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary has lost that one.
David Miliband | 472 c378 (Link to this contribution) That goes to the heart of the difference between a European Union foreign policy that is complementa...
David Miliband | 472 c377-8 (Link to this contribution) No. NATO is rightly governed by the rules of NATO and the European Union is governed by the rules of...
Jeremy Corbyn | 472 c378 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary is discussing the general point about CFSP and the views taken by the Union. T...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c383-4 (Link to this contribution) I am of the opinion that when all the parties in the House have committed themselves to a referendum...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c384 (Link to this contribution) Let me complete this point first. An intervention from the right hon. Gentleman is always something ...
Denis MacShane | 472 c384-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who stressed the importance of unity on the question of R...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c382-3 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, To leave out from ““House”” to end and to insert instead thereof:"““disapproves of th...
Gordon Banks | 472 c383 (Link to this contribution) On that point, is the right hon. Gentleman still of the same opinion that he was in 1998, which was ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c385 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is making an extraordinary accusation when he says that we have been collud...
Ed Davey | 472 c385 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman says that he is in favour of co-operation within the European Union on fore...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c385-6 (Link to this contribution) That brings me exactly to the points that I wanted to make about the evidence given to the Foreign A...
Ed Davey | 472 c386 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way again. Does he agree that the treaty's chan...
David Miliband | 472 c381 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but inherent in it is a significant correction to what ...
Tobias Ellwood | 472 c381 (Link to this contribution) If I may illustrate my point from my own experience, the problem is the one that we had in Bosnia. T...
David Miliband | 472 c380 (Link to this contribution) We are happy to send people of any political stripe to the EAS, although I do not know whether Torie...
Tobias Ellwood | 472 c380 (Link to this contribution) Many of us who have served in the armed forces, including myself, are concerned about the developmen...
David Miliband | 472 c381-2 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman would agree that, beyond France—and we could debate exactly where it...
Lord Soames of Fletching | 472 c381 (Link to this contribution) I am in favour of European co-operation on these matters, where possible, but will the Foreign Secre...
David Miliband | 472 c381 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman will agree that the first step is to build up capabilities. The purpose of perman...
Doug Henderson | 472 c381 (Link to this contribution) Is not the reality that there are some circumstances in which it will be far more appropriate for NA...
Mark Harper | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
David Miliband | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) If the hon. Gentleman will let me make some progress, I shall be happy to allow him to intervene as ...
David Miliband | 472 c372 (Link to this contribution) Fifteen countries, including the UK, recognised the new country of Kosovo within 72 hours of its cre...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c372 (Link to this contribution) Does the Foreign Secretary not realise that he is compounding his own foolishness in this respect? H...
David Miliband | 472 c372-3 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman, who studies these questions carefully, should destroy his own ar...
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c372 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary for giving way to me again, but on that basis, on whose autho...
David Miliband | 472 c373 (Link to this contribution) As ever, my right hon. Friend speaks with precision and accuracy on these matters, and I entirely ag...
Gerald Kaufman | 472 c373 (Link to this contribution) Is it not bizarre that Opposition Members should first complain that European Union countries, inclu...
David Miliband | 472 c373-4 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend is entirely right. Let me proceed with the details to show exactly why that is....
Denis MacShane | 472 c373 (Link to this contribution) I had the privilege, if that is the right word, of being the Minister responsible for the Balkans fo...
David Miliband | 472 c372 (Link to this contribution) I am surprised to find myself disagreeing on this point with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I...
David Miliband | 472 c371 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some specific references have been added in respect of NATO, whi...
Malcolm Rifkind | 472 c371-2 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the Foreign Secretary that when western European countries genuinely agree with each ot...
William Cash | 472 c371 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary referred to a number of amendments and I am happy to admit that I tabled some ...
David Miliband | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) There are several differences. I hope that I will not bore the hon. Gentleman, but I want to read ou...
James Clappison | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) I think that the Foreign Secretary will find that the clear answer to which he just referred is that...
David Miliband | 472 c376-7 (Link to this contribution) I shall read them very slowly, if that would help my right hon. Friend. The following two articles ...
David Miliband | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry if this has not been transmitted to the right hon. Gentleman, but the details of all the ...
Lord Lilley | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) Should not the House be given the details of the position taken by the Government in the European Co...
Lord Lilley | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary is a comparatively new Member of the House. There is a convention that Governm...
David Miliband | 472 c375 (Link to this contribution) I will come to the relationship between a specific request from the European Council—the Heads of Go...
William Cash | 472 c375 (Link to this contribution) Does the Foreign Secretary accept that the problems in practice begin to emerge when a joint action ...
David Miliband | 472 c375 (Link to this contribution) May I deal with the details of those four areas before I give way? There will be plenty of opportuni...
David Miliband | 472 c375 (Link to this contribution) Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, the Secretary-General of NATO, has made clear his welcome for the increased c...
Gordon Banks | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary has listed a number of aspects of security policy in the treaty. Will he tell ...
David Miliband | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) I refer the hon. Gentleman to the details in the treaty that have been added precisely in respect of...
Mark Harper | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Secretary said earlier that the EU's foreign policy would complement that of this countr...
David Miliband | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) It is up to the hon. Gentleman to decide whether he wishes to intervene now or later.
David Miliband | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) I will go through each of those four areas. Members can intervene now, or they can intervene as I do...
David Miliband | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to the hon. Gentleman when I reach the end of this passage. The treaty will bring t...
James Clappison | 472 c374 (Link to this contribution) Will the Foreign Secretary give way?
Bernard Jenkin | 472 c370 (Link to this contribution) May I put it to the Foreign Secretary that, important as these matters are, they are not directly re...
Speaker | 472 c370 (Link to this contribution) Before the Foreign Secretary replies, I should say that if anything irrelevant to the debate had bee...
David Miliband | 472 c369 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move,"That this House approves the Government's policy towards the Treaty of Lisbon in resp...
David Miliband | 472 c370-1 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was going on to say that the framework that Sir John Major agreed ...
Speaker | 472 c370 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to have to intervene a second time on the issue of relevance, but if we pursue that line ...
Speaker | 472 c369 (Link to this contribution) I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Richm...
David Miliband | 472 c377 (Link to this contribution) No, I think that the hon. Gentleman has just lost the House. [Interruption.]
David Miliband | 472 c371 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the legal framework is being established to strengthen the co-operation that the hon....
Angela C Smith | 472 c371 (Link to this contribution) Is it not the case that the Lisbon treaty does not promise to develop any policy to rival NATO polit...
David Miliband | 472 c371 (Link to this contribution) I give way to my hon. Friend first.
Mike Gapes | 472 c370 (Link to this contribution) Will my right hon. Friend say something about today's reports that hundreds, if not thousands, of Se...
Jim Murphy | 472 c420 (Link to this contribution) Not at all. The case I am making is that the European approach has often lacked momentum and has occ...
Denis MacShane | 472 c384 (Link to this contribution) Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Miliband | 472 c376 (Link to this contribution) Although I am extremely new to this House, I know that we table documents that are relevant to the t...
James Clappison | 472 c421 (Link to this contribution) The Foreign Affairs Committee, which the Minister has just quoted with approval, also says that the ...
Lord Hague of Richmond | 472 c388-9 (Link to this contribution) Yes, although it is right that British nominees should take part if the service is established. When...
David Miliband | 472 c378 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that my hon. Friend has all but floored me with her reference to the Oxford Research Gro...
David Miliband | 472 c370 (Link to this contribution) I assure the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) that in the time that he has just taken, I cou...
Subjects
Armed forces
European Union
EU common foreign and security policy
Treaties
NATO
Kosovo
EU defence policy
Treaty of Lisbon
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