UK Parliament / Open data

Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Debate on bills on Wednesday, 9 January 2008, in the House of Commons, led by Jack Straw. The answering member was Lord Herbert of South Downs.
Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. Programme motion (No 3) on proceedings on report and third reading. Agreed to on division (279 to 224). Report stage. New clause 36, discussed with Government new clause 37 and Government amendments, debated and agreed to on division (481 to 46). New clause 37 debated and agreed to. New clause 6, discussed with new clauses 8 and 9, debated and agreed to. New clause 25, discussed with Government new clauses 26 to 35, 45 to 49, Government new schedules 3, 5 to 7, debated and agreed to. New clause 26 agreed to on division (309 votes to 236). New clauses 3, 5, 21-24, 27-35 and 45-49 and New schedules 3 and 5 to 7 added to the Bill. New clause 4, discussed with Government new clause 10, and new clauses 18, 40, 42, debated and added to the Bill. New Clause 1 discussed with New clauses 14 to 16 and new schedule 1, debated and withdrawn. Amendment 231 to schedule 22 negatived on division (64 to 316). Amendment 1 to schedule 22 negatived on division (169 to 338). Third reading debate. Agreed to on question. Bill passed.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
470 c308-489 
Session
2007-08
Department
Ministry of Justice
Legislative stage
Third reading and Report stage
Procedure
Programme motions
New clauses
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
Related items
Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. As amended in Public Bill Committee. In two volumes.
Monday, 3 December 2007
Bills
House of Commons
Deposited Paper DEP2008-0437
Thursday, 31 January 2008
Deposited papers
House of Commons
Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
Thursday, 3 November 1994
Public acts
Proceeding contributions
Lord Garnier | 470 c490 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On behalf of Opposition Front Benchers, may I as...
John McDonnell | 470 c489-90 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The role of the Speaker in the House has traditionally been...

Show all contributions (340)
Ian McCartney | 470 c489 (Link to this contribution) I think I have one minute, and I want to support the Government. In particular, I want to thank them...
David Heath | 470 c489 (Link to this contribution) There may indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The sad truth is that I cannot possibly cover the content of t...
Speaker | 470 c490 (Link to this contribution) The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means responded to a point of order on the same lines when she...
Speaker | 470 c489 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he has admitted that this is a continuation o...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c486 (Link to this contribution) I shall not give way to the right hon. Gentleman for the moment; I wish to make an additional point....
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c486-7 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman will have a chance to reply in a minute. There are serious issues that have...
Philip Hollobone | 470 c487 (Link to this contribution) I served with the hon. Gentleman for some 47 hours on the Public Bill Committee. Does he agree that ...
David Heath | 470 c487 (Link to this contribution) Without employing hyperbole, I must say that I think this has been a deplorable advertisement for th...
Lord Garnier | 470 c488 (Link to this contribution) In the event that the other place sends back amendments, does the hon. Gentleman think that we will ...
David Heath | 470 c487-8 (Link to this contribution) It is indeed, and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman made that point. The Committee did its work well...
David Heath | 470 c488-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Gentleman knows that that is a rhetorical question. He knows perfectly well tha...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c485-6 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. Back Benchers barely had a chance to intervene, let alone to make a speech. We deb...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c485 (Link to this contribution) Today, we debated for just an hour new clauses that were tabled just 48 hours ago to outlaw industri...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c485 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. I have some considerable sympathy with the p...
Lynne Jones | 470 c484-5 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the provisions against incitement to hatred on grounds of sexual orientation, but is not i...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c484 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman did refer to those issues on Second Reading, and of course I will examine the pro...
Paul Beresford | 470 c484 (Link to this contribution) Part 13 of the Bill includes a clause on child sex offenders. On Second Reading, I raised two issues...
Jack Straw | 470 c486 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c486 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not give way. We did not debate violent offender orders, which raise fundamental issues....
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c482-3 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give way to three Members at once. The hon. Member for Buckingham should know that. In res...
Gerald Howarth | 470 c482 (Link to this contribution) The Minister accused me of not being present during much of the earlier debate. That is perfectly tr...
Speaker | 470 c482 (Link to this contribution) Order. The House needs to get back to the idea that we should be conducting a traditional Third Read...
Speaker | 470 c482 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind hon. Members that a Third Reading debate should be about the contents of the Bill un...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c482 (Link to this contribution) I accept that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am simply responding to the intervention of my hon. Friend th...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c481-2 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. Like her, I am sorry that we did not have su...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c484 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend will know, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, wh...
John McDonnell | 470 c483;470 c483-4 (Link to this contribution) On Second Reading, Back Benchers were given a maximum of three minutes each in which to debate prost...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c484 (Link to this contribution) I will take one more intervention, but then I must make some progress.
John Bercow | 470 c483 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. Thankfully, in my view, clause 107, which creates the offence of homo...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c483 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support for those measures. I think that they are supported a...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c483 (Link to this contribution) I will give way to my hon. Friend, but I must then make some progress.
Brian Iddon | 470 c483 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I am also grateful for the fact that we are to have a much-ne...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c483 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend will know, the issue of prostitution is not currently in the Bill in terms of the ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 470 c456 (Link to this contribution) I have seconds to speak to new clause 2. The situation is straightforward. Hundreds of thousands of ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c480 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. I thank hon. Members on both sides of the ...
Fiona Mactaggart | 470 c456 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 470 c456 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 181, clause 104, page 71, l...
Speaker | 470 c480 (Link to this contribution) Order. Will Members who do not wish to participate in the Third Reading of the Bill please leave the...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c480 (Link to this contribution) I pay particular tribute to the Opposition spokesmen, the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr...
Evan Harris | 470 c455 (Link to this contribution) I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Motion and clause, by leave, withdrawn.
Maria Eagle | 470 c455 (Link to this contribution) Unfortunately I do not agree with what the hon. Gentleman says. We have had extensive debate and I s...
Dominic Grieve | 470 c455 (Link to this contribution) Even though there may be a clarity of intention that will prevent prosecutions taking place, there i...
Speaker | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) Order. Mr. Speaker reads a copy of Hansard each and every morning, so the hon. Gentleman's comments ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) When Mr. Speaker looks at those comments, Madam Deputy Speaker, he will see that the hon. Member for...
Fiona Mactaggart | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) I was present during our debate and the Minister will be aware that this is the first time in five y...
Gerald Howarth | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. In supporting my right hon. Friend the Member ...
Speaker | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) In response to that point of order, I have to say that the occupant of the Chair is governed by the ...
Gerald Howarth | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) May I then ask you to be kind enough to convey to Mr. Speaker the fact that many Members believe tha...
Speaker | 470 c481 (Link to this contribution) Order. The hon. Gentleman's point follows on from that of his right hon. Friend, and I have already ...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c451-2 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak to new clause 1, which proposes the abolition of blasphemy laws, and to amendment No...
John Bercow | 470 c454 (Link to this contribution) I put it to the hon. Lady that amendment No. 1, whatever the intention of its proposers, is entirely...
Maria Eagle | 470 c454 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is correct and is assisting me greatly. The reason why the Government oppose amen...
Ann Widdecombe | 470 c454-5 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I am particularly grateful to her for rushing through ...
Maria Eagle | 470 c455 (Link to this contribution) The matter that the right hon. Lady raises is about proper guidance and training. Those matters will...
Maria Eagle | 470 c453-4 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the opportunity to make the Government's position clear on the two issues that we have dea...
Evan Harris | 470 c454 (Link to this contribution) I welcome what the Minister says, and in the light of her comments, I will not press new clause 1 to...
Maria Eagle | 470 c454 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. I shall move on, without further ado, to amendment No....
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c452 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my hon. Friend, but I am not going to give way. I have so little time and I want to l...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c353-4 (Link to this contribution) First, I believe that the Joint Committee on Human Rights was looking at the Bill introduced by my h...
Jack Straw | 470 c353 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman quotes me very accurately, and that is the burden of my position. All hon. Member...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c353 (Link to this contribution) I completely agree. What good do the Government think that the proposed clarification will do? Indee...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c352-3 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of the phrase"““ought to have been apparent to the person using such force””," which is...
Patrick Mercer | 470 c353 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that the law is so unambiguous that the Government were forced—three years...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c352 (Link to this contribution) I note that Labour Back Benchers are giving the Justice Secretary no protection at all today. He may...
Lord Deben | 470 c352 (Link to this contribution) The Justice Secretary shakes his head in disapproval. Before my hon. Friend is too kind to the right...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c351-2 (Link to this contribution) I am in a dilemma about how generous to be to the Lord Chancellor. Today he has repented of many sin...
Lord Bellingham | 470 c356 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is something of an expert on the subject, given his experience with private Membe...
David Howarth | 470 c354-5 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is confusing two different aspects of the problem. One is the test of reasonablen...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c355 (Link to this contribution) We think that the balance that we have achieved between the two components of the offence is right, ...
David Heath | 470 c355-6 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry that the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) seems incapable of unders...
Shailesh Vara | 470 c354 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that Ian Blair, the present Metropolitan Police Commissioner, got it right...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c354 (Link to this contribution) On that occasion, Sir Ian did get it right and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us of t...
Jack Straw | 470 c354 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman deal briefly with the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (David How...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c354 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not accept that and I am happy to rely on the advice of the Library, which says that the ne...
Jack Straw | 470 c347 (Link to this contribution) Before I give way to the hon. Lady and to other Conservative Members, I want to place on record my a...
Speaker | 470 c346-7 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment (a) to the proposed new clause, ...
Jack Straw | 470 c348 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way in a moment, first to the hon. Lady and then to the right hon. Lady. Something tha...
Jack Straw | 470 c348 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way in a moment. Although such guidance is helpful, it is not the law. The purpose of o...
David Anderson | 470 c308 (Link to this contribution) Is not the obvious difference the fact that while under the JIRPA people who took action that was sl...
Jack Straw | 470 c338 (Link to this contribution) As I said to our hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson), although I will not give an unde...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c308 (Link to this contribution) That is quite possible. Another possibility is that the wording will become the subject of interpret...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c338 (Link to this contribution) That is helpful. I think that the wording should be examined and, hopefully, changed before it is pu...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c338 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that we need to be sensitive about the rights of prison officers, and I unde...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c338 (Link to this contribution) We all appreciate that order in prisons must be maintained. The issue for me is the timing as much a...
David Heath | 470 c338-40 (Link to this contribution) It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), who talked a great deal of...
Frank Doran | 470 c340-1 (Link to this contribution) We are very short of time so I will make some quick points. This is an industrial relations issue. O...
Speaker | 470 c341 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Jack Straw | 470 c346 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Lord Bellingham | 470 c350-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend has hit on an important point. The Lord Chancellor said a moment ago that it is up to...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c350 (Link to this contribution) In accepting Government new clause 6, I want to explain why we do not believe that it goes far enoug...
Jack Straw | 470 c350 (Link to this contribution) I want to allow the House time to debate what is proposed, so if I may, on this occasion I will shal...
Jack Straw | 470 c349-50 (Link to this contribution) To some degree, we may end up arguing about the size of the head of a pin. In the rare cases where s...
Dominic Grieve | 470 c349 (Link to this contribution) The Lord Chancellor has to accept that his new clause is a restatement of the existing law. As the l...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c351 (Link to this contribution) I agree. As my hon. Friend the shadow Attorney-General pointed out, the Secretary of State's amendme...
Lord Vaizey of Didcot | 470 c351 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Secretary of State has opposed changing the law for the past de...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c351 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right. The point at issue is that when someone enters a premises—a home or a shop—...
Shailesh Vara | 470 c351 (Link to this contribution) In his speech to the Labour party conference, the Justice Secretary said that he would like to"““rev...
Jack Straw | 470 c348 (Link to this contribution) This has been the subject of considerable debate, but it ultimately comes down to a matter of judgme...
Jack Straw | 470 c348-9 (Link to this contribution) I say as gently as possible to the hon. Gentleman that I have three interventions to take first, but...
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 470 c348 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the Secretary of State's openness in meeting to discuss the text. The leaflet to w...
Jack Straw | 470 c349 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the Front-Bench spokesman.
Patrick Mercer | 470 c349 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful that the Justice Secretary has brought up the name of my constituent, Brendon Fea...
Jack Straw | 470 c349 (Link to this contribution) I am not grateful to Mr. Fearon—[Interruption.] I was Home Secretary when the Tony Martin case arose...
Jack Straw | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) I understand that that is the POA's case. I do not want to make points about the matter, but it has ...
Peter Bone | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) On the August strike, was not one of the problems with the voluntary agreement the fact that the uni...
Jack Straw | 470 c330-1 (Link to this contribution) The action is not precipitate—far from it. The parties had the draft, which is exactly the same as t...
John McDonnell | 470 c330 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to my right hon. Friend for not being able to remain for the rest of the debate, but I h...
Jack Straw | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way again, but I want to make one point before concluding. I happened to be on holiday ...
Elfyn Llwyd | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) First, I want to emphasise the point that breaching the agreement angered the POA. At no time was th...
Jack Straw | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) I do not believe that it is an insult. Were we starting from scratch, the hon. Gentleman's point mig...
Mike Penning | 470 c331 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Secretary of State for being so generous in giving way. We are considering a serious is...
David Winnick | 470 c332 (Link to this contribution) Everyone will recognise that my right hon. Friend would not ask for such powers lightly. Obviously, ...
Jack Straw | 470 c331-2 (Link to this contribution) My last substantive point before giving way is that the new clause provides for reserve powers, whic...
Speaker | 470 c321 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Speaker | 470 c325 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment (a) to the proposed new clause, in subsection (...
Jack Straw | 470 c325 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 470 c325 (Link to this contribution) That is absolutely correct, and any time that we take up now will be taken out of that time, so I su...
David Winnick | 470 c325 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Could you confirm that the series of debates that we are ab...
John McDonnell | 470 c327 (Link to this contribution) My right hon. Friend has suggested that in the summer of 1994, he took a decision on behalf of the O...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c328 (Link to this contribution) May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that I was the Prisons Minister at the time of the Wandsworth ...
Jack Straw | 470 c327-8 (Link to this contribution) I understand what my hon. Friend says, but the simple fact is that I made the judgment during the pe...
Jack Straw | 470 c328-30 (Link to this contribution) I understand the right hon. and learned Gentleman's point of view. However, the POA came along and s...
Jack Straw | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) I am ready to give this very clear undertaking. If the powers have to be brought in on Royal Assent,...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c333-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall try to take as little time as possible because I suspect that other hon. Members might wish ...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c336-7 (Link to this contribution) Any doubts about my view of the new clause have been reinforced by the reminder that this is Thatche...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c336 (Link to this contribution) Of course it is no surprise, as we introduced the power and it was clearly a mistake to rescind it i...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c335-6 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, as my right hon. and learned Friend says, the statutory ban would have afforded greater prot...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c335 (Link to this contribution) While I accept my hon. Friend's analysis, does he agree that it simply reinforces the proposition th...
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c335 (Link to this contribution) The question I put to the Justice Secretary on Monday, which he did not answer, is why the Governmen...
Jack Straw | 470 c332 (Link to this contribution) I understand my hon. Friend's concern, but the wording is very specific. In relation to the fire and...
Jack Straw | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) I accept the concerns expressed, and I was pleased to meet prison officers, who are dedicated staff,...
Geraldine Smith | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) The prison officers at Lancaster Farms were grateful to the Secretary of State for visiting them, ta...
Jack Straw | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) They are withdrawing from it, but they knew precisely what the arrangement was if they withdrew from...
Geraldine Smith | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) But they are withdrawing from it.
Jack Straw | 470 c332 (Link to this contribution) That phraseology picks up the phrasing of paragraph 6 of the annexe to the current agreement.
David Anderson | 470 c332 (Link to this contribution) The Secretary of State mentioned Ed Sweeney's plan as being a road map. In the view of the prison of...
Jack Straw | 470 c332 (Link to this contribution) It is not why it did not work, with great respect. In the hope of being helpful, while I cannot give...
Richard Burden | 470 c333 (Link to this contribution) For all the reasons that my right hon. Friend has given, I am sure that we all want a successful rei...
Speaker | 470 c318-9 (Link to this contribution) Order. I know that the hon. Member does not mean to be discourteous, but I have already prevented an...
Oliver Heald | 470 c318 (Link to this contribution) I add my voice to those that have already been raised against the programme motion. It is particular...
Bob Spink | 470 c316-7 (Link to this contribution) It is difficult to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd), who spea...
Fiona Mactaggart | 470 c317 (Link to this contribution) I have never opposed a programme motion before, because I know that Governments need to get their bu...
Speaker | 470 c315 (Link to this contribution) Order. I did not know that. If the hon. Lady was not here for the opening of the debate, I am afraid...
Richard Shepherd | 470 c315-6 (Link to this contribution) Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I have been here from the beginning of the debate. The path to hell is paved...
Nick Hurd | 470 c318 (Link to this contribution) I, too, wish to place on record my extreme disquiet about the programme motion. All the other speake...
David Winnick | 470 c318 (Link to this contribution) As my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) said, all Governments have programme moti...
Crispin Blunt | 470 c317 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). On any reasonable assessment of...
Roger Gale | 470 c318 (Link to this contribution) When the Minister moved the motion, he suggested that the Government had to terminate their business...
Mark Durkan | 470 c319 (Link to this contribution) I was here at the start of the debate, Mr. Speaker, and I simply wish to make the brief point that, ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c319 (Link to this contribution) With the leave of the House, Mr. Speaker, I shall respond to the debate. I said at the start that I ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) As has been said, the hon. Gentleman makes the same speech on such matters on every occasion—occasio...
Lord Garnier | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to lose his rag, because he contained himself admirably in Co...
Speaker | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) Order. Interventions should be brief.
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) On Monday my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor, in an unprecedented way, made a statement to the...
Nick Hurd | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) Did the right hon. Gentleman, or the Lord High Chancellor, ask for more time than the Chief Whip has...
Lord Garnier | 470 c309-12 (Link to this contribution) May I begin by congratulating the Minister on his ability to keep a straight face? This Bill was fi...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c309 (Link to this contribution) As I have said, my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and I have tried to structure today's proce...
James Duddridge | 470 c309 (Link to this contribution) I note what the Minister has said about the Committee proceedings, but hon. Members had no opportuni...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c309 (Link to this contribution) I understand the concerns of the Opposition. With my right hon. Friends the Lord Chancellor and the ...
Stewart Hosie | 470 c315 (Link to this contribution) When the Bill was published, its territorial extent was described. Only minor matters related to Sco...
Lynne Jones | 470 c315 (Link to this contribution) Mr. Speaker, I apologise for not being present at the start of the debate, although I was able to li...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c314 (Link to this contribution) I will be brief, because I want to get on to debating the amendments, particularly the first group, ...
Lord Garnier | 470 c314 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman accept that his concerns are shared by those of us who were on the Committee...
Neil Gerrard | 470 c314 (Link to this contribution) Of course there are many issues that are to be discussed that are new to the Bill, and people who we...
David Heath | 470 c312-3 (Link to this contribution) It really will not do for the Minister of State to open this debate by saying how much he agrees wit...
Roger Gale | 470 c313 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have now heard from all three Front Benchers, and it is abundan...
Speaker | 470 c314 (Link to this contribution) As I have said to the House on many occasions, the House expresses its opinions, but the Speaker can...
Lord Garnier | 470 c382 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am probably interrupting you wholly unnecessarily. Earl...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c381-2 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will know that we have put in extra resources to provide ...
Lord Garnier | 470 c381 (Link to this contribution) There are 3,100 prisoners on IPPs; the proposal will have absolutely no bearing on them. How will th...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c380-1 (Link to this contribution) I welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, for our interesting but short debate within the ti...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c379-80 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is entirely right. One of the great tragedies of the whole penal system is that an ex...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c378-9 (Link to this contribution) May I just follow up what my hon. and learned Friend said with regard to courses? There is a serious...
John Bercow | 470 c379 (Link to this contribution) May I put it to my right hon. and learned Friend that the problem with some community service orders...
Speaker | 470 c378 (Link to this contribution) Order. I must say to the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) that that is not the w...
Lord Garnier | 470 c378 (Link to this contribution) I apologise, but I think that the Secretary of State understood precisely what I was about.
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c409 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
David Heath | 470 c407 (Link to this contribution) The hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) is absolutely right. I counted 64 provision...
Lord Garnier | 470 c407 (Link to this contribution) It is always a pleasure—indeed, a delight—to hear the hon. Lady speak in the Chamber. The disrespect...
Maria Eagle | 470 c408 (Link to this contribution) I shall resist the provocation to deal with Opposition Members' points by going through the details ...
Speaker | 470 c384 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby.
Maria Eagle | 470 c406 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Speaker | 470 c406 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 18 to 40, 87 to 89, 42 to 54, ...
Maria Eagle | 470 c406 (Link to this contribution) I hope not to have to detain the House too long with this group of amendments and the new clause, gi...
Speaker | 470 c382 (Link to this contribution) I was informed by the previous occupant of the Chair of the hon. and learned Gentleman's wish to div...
John McDonnell | 470 c417 (Link to this contribution) Is that not an example not necessarily of mission creep but of the legislative creep that will be di...
David Heath | 470 c417 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) raises an important issue. He may be pleas...
John McDonnell | 470 c417 (Link to this contribution) I want to address new clause 18, which is tabled in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member fo...
David Burrowes | 470 c413-6 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to be able to welcome to a certain extent the progress that we have made. It is good to...
Speaker | 470 c409-11 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 5— Referral orders:...
Sally Keeble | 470 c413 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful that we do not have an amendment removing secure training centres from the r...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c413 (Link to this contribution) Again I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the way in which she has approached that issue. She will k...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c412-3 (Link to this contribution) If the mutual appreciation society can continue, let me say that I am grateful to my hon. Friend for...
David TC Davies | 470 c421 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
David Heath | 470 c421 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. We have to question whether it is value for money to lock up young people if the res...
David Heath | 470 c417 (Link to this contribution) I could not agree more. The record of today's proceedings ought to show that Report stage started a...
Lord Deben | 470 c418 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that some of these matters deserve considerably greater discussion, wh...
David Heath | 470 c418-9 (Link to this contribution) The right hon. Gentleman is right. I have tabled a number of the amendments in this group and I inte...
David TC Davies | 470 c419 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that prison is so ineffective because very little in the way of rehabi...
David Heath | 470 c419 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is well known for his antediluvian views. I do not think that they are shared by ...
David TC Davies | 470 c419 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way again?
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c368 (Link to this contribution) It is not just a matter of supervision. Because they are responsible for so many people, probation o...
Philip Davies | 470 c366 (Link to this contribution) Does the Minister not understand the outrage among members of the public at prisoners being automati...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c366-7 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman indicates that he is against the principles of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The...
Philip Davies | 470 c366 (Link to this contribution) How many more people will be released on bail as a result of the Bill?
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c366 (Link to this contribution) Approximately 200, if the measure is passed. The broad definition will allow the courts to remand a...
Phil Wilson | 470 c365 (Link to this contribution) How can we trust the Opposition parties on criminal justice when, in Committee, the Liberal Democrat...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c365 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend, who loyally served on the Committee, draws attention to the fact that we had a debat...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c364 (Link to this contribution) I see that the minimum notional sentence is two years. That suggests to me that the IPP, under these...
Lord Garnier | 470 c370 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. I have made the point repeatedly for the last two years, since I star...
Lord Garnier | 470 c368-9 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is quite right. Churning, or the constant movement of prisoners from prison to prison...
Lord Garnier | 470 c369 (Link to this contribution) I am afraid that the Government have completely lost touch with their earlier legislation. They have...
Philip Davies | 470 c370 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with my hon. and learned Friend. I think that my constituents will find it unaccept...
John Bercow | 470 c368 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. and learned Friend allow me?
John Bercow | 470 c368 (Link to this contribution) I am extremely grateful to my hon. and learned Friend, who I would not want to understate his case. ...
Lord Garnier | 470 c368 (Link to this contribution) That is also true. The two issues—prison overcrowding and overstretching of the probation service—co...
Lord Garnier | 470 c372-4 (Link to this contribution) Would that that were possible. Someone might, for example, commit a non-invasive sexual offence agai...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c371 (Link to this contribution) I respect the hon. and learned Gentleman's judgment on that issue. I have indicated in my comments t...
Lord Garnier | 470 c371 (Link to this contribution) I know that that is precisely what the Minister has said, but he is looking down the wrong end of th...
David Heath | 470 c374-5 (Link to this contribution) That is entirely right. I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for making that point....
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c375 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a consequential problem is that the probation service is no longe...
David Heath | 470 c374 (Link to this contribution) Nothing better illustrates some of the arguments that we attempted to put forward when we discussed ...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c374 (Link to this contribution) Another disadvantage in the process is that there has been no consultation, so far as I am aware, wi...
Lord Garnier | 470 c370 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to Lord Carter of Coles for getting his title wrong. I know that we all enjoy a joke fro...
John Bercow | 470 c370 (Link to this contribution) Coles or Carter, what is the difference? [Laughter.]
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c377 (Link to this contribution) Absolutely. When we deal with sentencing it is very important that we consult with interests outside...
John Bercow | 470 c377 (Link to this contribution) Is not that the concept of unconscious remission?
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c377-8 (Link to this contribution) That is one of the better descriptions of it that I have heard. I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who...
Lord Garnier | 470 c378 (Link to this contribution) I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend about the defensive decisions that—
Lord Garnier | 470 c378 (Link to this contribution) It is good of the Justice Secretary even to condescend to come into the Chamber, let alone to interr...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c378 (Link to this contribution) Yes. That is a slightly different point, but it is an important one. Partly because of overcrowding—...
David Heath | 470 c375-7 (Link to this contribution) Again I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as he has touched on a very important p...
Lord Deben | 470 c377 (Link to this contribution) Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is precisely on such subjects that the House sho...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c377 (Link to this contribution) I support strongly what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) said abou...
Lord Vaizey of Didcot | 470 c357 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has just contradicted himself. He said earlier that he was minded to support new ...
David Heath | 470 c356-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but it is a fact that very few such cases go to court. The prob...
David Howarth | 470 c357 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is on the right lines. The Court of Appeal said that if the question were simply whet...
David Heath | 470 c357 (Link to this contribution) Quite the reverse. That is the difficulty that I have with the Conservatives' position. I do not thi...
Dominic Grieve | 470 c358 (Link to this contribution) I do not want to get involved in an exercise in semantics, but subsection (4) of new clause 6, which...
David Heath | 470 c357-8 (Link to this contribution) I wish I had not allowed my hon. Friend to intervene. That is what I was saying. The point is exactl...
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 470 c359 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) on his sterling performance, but I...
David Heath | 470 c358-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman says that he does not want to get involved in semantics. I am sorry, but in that ...
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 470 c360 (Link to this contribution) With the greatest respect, the right hon. Gentleman has to accept that a robbery in an open space, i...
Jack Straw | 470 c360 (Link to this contribution) I shall reflect on what the hon. Lady has said, but this has been the subject of a huge amount of wo...
Lord Bellingham | 470 c360-1 (Link to this contribution) Members might well believe that I come to this issue entirely on the basis of the Tony Martin case. ...
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 470 c360 (Link to this contribution) I simply conclude by saying that I rest my case. I commend new clauses 8 and 9 to the House. The pro...
Jack Straw | 470 c360 (Link to this contribution) I do not think that we should have a competition, but I speak from direct experience. Another guy—an...
Speaker | 470 c361 (Link to this contribution) Order—with apologies to the hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer).
Lord Vaizey of Didcot | 470 c361 (Link to this contribution) It is unprecedented, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I should take precedence over my hon. Friend the Membe...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c363-4 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments gives effect to recommendations made by my noble Friend Lord Carter of Cole...
Speaker | 470 c363 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 26—Credit for perio...
Jim Dobbin | 470 c451 (Link to this contribution) I have also made it clear that the amendment would be appropriate for the whole of society. The word...
Jim Dobbin | 470 c450 (Link to this contribution) When I talked about the Churches drafting the amendment, I said that they helped to draft it.
Ann Widdecombe | 470 c451 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is concentrating quite heavily on the clause's effect on the freedom of religious...
Jim Dobbin | 470 c450 (Link to this contribution) I disagree with my hon. Friend. I am not suggesting that at all. The main purpose of the amendment i...
Robert Key | 470 c450 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has twice said that the Churches have drafted the amendment, but they have not. I...
Jim Dobbin | 470 c449 (Link to this contribution) I accept that the hon. Gentleman is supporting some of the evidence that I have put forward. Amendme...
Chris Bryant | 470 c450 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is arguing that people of faith should be allowed to use threatening words, and that ...
David Heath | 470 c449 (Link to this contribution) I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has had the chance to look at the Committee proceedings, bu...
Evan Harris | 470 c445 (Link to this contribution) I have never accepted slippery slope arguments, whether they are to do with embryology or anything l...
Mark Pritchard | 470 c445 (Link to this contribution) Is this not really an indirect argument—an argument by stealth—for the eventual disestablishment of ...
Lord Deben | 470 c446 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I find myself in some difficulty being in the same Lobby as he, but he ...
Evan Harris | 470 c443-4 (Link to this contribution) I can tell the right hon. Lady that in my opinion, and in that of the human rights lawyers whom I ha...
Evan Harris | 470 c444 (Link to this contribution) No. My right hon. Friend makes the case that when it comes to incitement of hate-crime offences, the...
Lord Beith | 470 c444 (Link to this contribution) Is my hon. Friend not making a rather persuasive case for amendment No. 1, which seeks to make clear...
Evan Harris | 470 c445 (Link to this contribution) Yes. I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman is not persuaded, but I do not doubt that he came in ...
Roger Gale | 470 c444-5 (Link to this contribution) As the hon. Gentleman knows, I came to this debate with an open mind because I wanted to hear the ar...
Evan Harris | 470 c445 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman puts it correctly. Most of those who are liable to be accused of blasphemy have t...
Chris Bryant | 470 c445 (Link to this contribution) As a former curate in the Church of England, I could not tell the hon. Gentleman what the tenets of ...
Jim Dobbin | 470 c448-9 (Link to this contribution) I want to speak specifically to amendment No. 1. I should point out at the beginning that I am aware...
Evan Harris | 470 c447-8 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, and in my view all beliefs should be treated equally. The final reason for seeking to aboli...
Evan Harris | 470 c446-7 (Link to this contribution) People will buy tickets if they want to watch the sort of stuff that is put on. That is, I think, ca...
John Hayes | 470 c446 (Link to this contribution) Rather ungenerously, I was tempted to say that the reason why the hon. Gentleman is not attracted by...
Evan Harris | 470 c446 (Link to this contribution) That is a private argument—or indeed now a public argument—between the right hon. Gentleman and peop...
Martin Salter | 470 c447 (Link to this contribution) I support the new clause, and I joined the hon. Gentleman, and the present Leader of the Opposition,...
Evan Harris | 470 c447 (Link to this contribution) I agree with everything that the hon. Gentleman has said.
David Wilshire | 470 c447 (Link to this contribution) As a co-sponsor of the new clause, I say that the hon. Gentleman has hit on the real issue: this is ...
Evan Harris | 470 c447 (Link to this contribution) It is not the case that attacks on the Prophet Mohammed would be covered by criminal law in this cou...
Lord Garnier | 470 c427-8 (Link to this contribution) The conventions on torture to which this country is party exist, and we should comply with them irre...
Bob Spink | 470 c426 (Link to this contribution) I have been reading the relevant parts of the amendment paper and I find them absolutely impenetrabl...
Jeremy Corbyn | 470 c426-7 (Link to this contribution) Like the hon. and learned Gentleman, I am slightly confused by the volume of amendments that have be...
Lord Garnier | 470 c426 (Link to this contribution) It is good of my hon. Friend to invite me to consider that issue; I have been having a careful look ...
Speaker | 470 c425 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 22—Issue of warrant ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c425 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Lord Garnier | 470 c426 (Link to this contribution) The Minister did not tell us that the amendment paper contains brand new additions to the Bill. They...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c425-6 (Link to this contribution) The Government have previously announced their intention to ratify the additional protocol to the Co...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c421-3 (Link to this contribution) We have had a useful debate following my opening consensual acceptance of amendments that were table...
Ann Widdecombe | 470 c443 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that within the last two years the European Court has ruled first th...
Evan Harris | 470 c442-3 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased to move the abolition of the ancient discriminatory, unnecessary, illiberal and non-hum...
Speaker | 470 c437-42 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 14— Hatred against persons on ...
Evan Harris | 470 c437 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c430-1 (Link to this contribution) Currently, the UK has transfer agreements with approximately 100 countries, ranging from Albania, An...
Jeremy Corbyn | 470 c430 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for the assurance that he has just given. Is he in a position to say what negot...
Jeremy Corbyn | 470 c428-9 (Link to this contribution) I will be very brief. I would like the Minister to deal with four points when he responds. First, wh...
David Howarth | 470 c428 (Link to this contribution) I would simply like to add my own concern about the late tabling of such lengthy and complex provisi...
David Howarth | 470 c352 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman has not mentioned proposed new section (1A)(b) of new clause 8, which uses the ph...
Jack Straw | 470 c325-7 (Link to this contribution) On Monday, for an hour, I gave a statement, in the course of which I obviously took questions, to se...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c320 (Link to this contribution) These matters are for discussion and agreement, and the Chief Whip, my right hon. Friend the Member ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c412 (Link to this contribution) As was pointed out earlier during debate on the programme motion, we spent considerable time on thes...
David Heath | 470 c419-21 (Link to this contribution) No, I will not. New clause 40 tries to ensure that the ISS option is available and that custody is ...
David Heath | 470 c371 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to what the hon. and learned Gentleman has to say; of course, he has a lot ...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c362 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Lord Herbert of South Downs | 470 c453 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way. We supported the principle in general terms in Committee. However, such...
Angela Watkinson | 470 c447 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that gratuitously and grossly offensive material, of a sort th...
David Heath | 470 c356 (Link to this contribution) I think that the hon. Gentleman has just explained what proportionality means; I thought that we und...
David TC Davies | 470 c356 (Link to this contribution) I am delighted that a Liberal Democrat is taking such a line. If the hon. Gentleman believes that pe...
Jack Straw | 470 c347 (Link to this contribution) The purpose of our provisions is to amend and clarify for the better the law on self-defence. This i...
Jack Straw | 470 c349 (Link to this contribution) I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman.
Richard Shepherd | 470 c309 (Link to this contribution) I do not understand the logic of the Minister's argument. He concedes the position of those who oppo...
Helen Jones | 470 c412 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for listening to the representations made by me and by others. Hopef...
Lord Garnier | 470 c367-8 (Link to this contribution) The Minister, in his characteristically disarming way, advances some propositions that, had we the t...
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c364-5 (Link to this contribution) There will be a two-year custodial sentence, which might mean a four-year sentence in due course. I ...
Viscount Hailsham | 470 c369 (Link to this contribution) May I reinforce what my hon. and learned Friend is saying? He will know that under the sentencing gu...
Speaker | 470 c361 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, but I am going to call Mr. Ed Vaizey.
Ann Widdecombe | 470 c480 (Link to this contribution) On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I note that we have about half an hour for Third Reading....
Lord Hanson of Flint | 470 c429-30 (Link to this contribution) The key point is that the purpose of the amendments is to support the Government's belief that, when...
Jack Straw | 470 c335 (Link to this contribution) I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but does he accept that at the time of the repeal, a...
Richard Shepherd | 470 c319-20 (Link to this contribution) This is a question not of programme motions but of rationality. Everyone who has spoken on the matte...
Subjects
Complaints
Criminal proceedings
Appeals
Crime
Bail
Detainees
Armed forces
Crimes of violence
Anti-social behaviour
Blasphemy
Burglary
Arrest warrants
Electronic tagging
Incitement
Judgements
Offenders
Northern Ireland
Police
Prisoners' transfers
Prisons
Prisoners' release
Prostitution
Overcrowding
Scotland
Sentencing
Sexual offences
Young offenders
Sexuality
Repatriation
Strikes
Anti-social behaviour orders
Self-defence
Youth rehabilitation orders
Youth offender referral orders
Legislation
Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill 2006-07 to 2007-08
Criminal Law Act 1967
Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967
Link
View this Parliamentary proceeding on www.publications.parliament.uk
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