Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

May I just follow up what my hon. and learned Friend said with regard to courses? There is a serious issue to address. Because of overcrowding and strained resources, many prisoners who have been given an IPP are not able to get on, or to complete, the training course that would enable them to be considered for release. In the prison system, unless individuals have gone through the training period, the question of their release at the end of the notional period cannot arise. That is a serious injustice, and it has actually taken place. It has given rise to decisions by the divisional court with regard to prisoners who have not had such training periods. If IPPs are to continue—and I have serious doubts about whether they should—they should be imposed only for those offences that can truly be categorised as serious. In the past, the classes of offence have been set out in schedules. The problem is that within the class there are many offences that sound serious but which, in truth, in a particular case are not serious. The only way in which one can determine whether an offence is truly serious in a particular case is with reference to the notional term of imprisonment imposed as the tariff. For that reason, I find the two-year notional term—the minimum term—far too low. That sentence can be imposed in respect of fairly minor offences, and I do not want to see someone who is convicted of a fairly minor offence facing an IPP. If I have to contemplate the system at all, I would want to drive up the threshold so that only those people who have committed serious offences are subject to an IPP. The last point that I want to make, which was made in part by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough, relates to the probation service. Any of us who practise in the criminal courts—I have practised for many years in the criminal courts and I still do; I make no attempt to conceal that—know well that many prisoners should not, in general terms, be in prison. One of the reasons for that is that the public have no real confidence in the alternatives. My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) would probably never have any confidence in the alternatives, but that is by the bye. The public need to have confidence in the alternatives, particularly in what I used to refer to as community service orders. They have no confidence now partly because community service orders are not seen to be sufficiently vigorous, and partly because in many cases they are not enforced at all, so there is no proper compliance. One of the reasons for that is that the probation service is grossly overwhelmed. It has too many people to supervise. One of the consequences of some of the amendments in this grouping is that the probation service will be even more overwhelmed. The bizarre effect of that will be that it is unable to perform what it needs to perform in respect of people ordered to serve a community sentence order, there will be yet less public confidence in community service orders, and there will be greater public demand for people to be sent to prison for periods of custody.