UK Parliament / Open data

Statistics and Registration Service Bill

Debate on bills on Tuesday, 13 March 2007, in the House of Commons, led by John Healey. The answering member was Theresa Villiers.

Statistics and Registration Service Bill. Programme motion (No 2) on proceedings on Report, and Third reading. Agreed to on question. Report stage. New Clause 1, discussed with New Clause 3, debated and withdrawn. New Clause 4 debated and negatived on division. New Clause 5 debated and negatived on division. Amendments made to the Bill. Third reading debate. Agreed to on question and Bill passed.

Type

Parliamentary proceeding

Reference

458 c159-259

Session

2006-07

Department

Treasury

Legislative stage

Third reading and Report stage

Procedure

Programme motions
New clauses

Chamber / Committee

House of Commons chamber

Statistics and Registration Service Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 53-EN also published.
Wednesday, 14 March 2007
Bills
House of Lords

Proceeding contributions

Speaker | 458 c222 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. The House having divide...

Mark Hoban | 458 c221-2 (Link to this contribution) Such is the interest in pre-release that Members have flocked to the Chamber to see the Minister ref...

Show all contributions (162)

John Healey | 458 c221 (Link to this contribution) The principal point that I am urging on the House is not that it should wait and see but that the im...

Vincent Cable | 458 c220 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is essentially asking us to wait and see and saying that all our anxieties will be put ...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c225 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 6, leave out ‘Treasury’ and insert ‘Cabinet Office’.

John Healey | 458 c217-8 (Link to this contribution) As is often the case, my hon. Friend is right. In many respects, these are ““in case”” provisions. I...

Rob Marris | 458 c219 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his continuing generosity in giving way, and I am grateful to hi...

John Healey | 458 c219-20 (Link to this contribution) The present arrangements involve the publication of the list of national statistics and of the arran...

Brooks Newmark | 458 c218 (Link to this contribution) I do not mean to throw the Financial Secretary’s words back at him, but he said in Committee that Pa...

John Healey | 458 c218-9 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman served on the Committee. If he hears me out, he will hear me emphasise again that...

Alun Michael | 458 c236 (Link to this contribution) Has the hon. Gentleman noted that his colleagues from Wales are so interested in the topic that not ...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c236-7 (Link to this contribution) I note the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. I tend not to make comments on such matters, although th...

John Healey | 458 c237-8 (Link to this contribution) The Treasury Committee said that public perceptions about the independence of the board will depend ...

Alun Michael | 458 c238 (Link to this contribution) I am one of the few people in the House who has experience in this respect. It was always my experie...

John Healey | 458 c238-9 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for my right hon. Friend’s contribution, because he is able to give the House that sor...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c239 (Link to this contribution) There are powers for the devolved Administrations to direct. If the Financial Secretary is telling u...

John Healey | 458 c239-40 (Link to this contribution) I cannot give the hon. Gentleman, who seemed to be paraphrasing me, an absolute assurance that a dir...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c240 (Link to this contribution) I will not press my amendment today. Obviously, I have listened to the debate, but I apologise to th...

John Healey | 458 c241 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 25, in page 2, line 42, leave out ‘has misbehaved’ and insert

Speaker | 458 c241 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 26 and 28 to 33.

Alun Michael | 458 c231 (Link to this contribution) Indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. What should we do if we cannot answer questions such as that about th...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c231-2 (Link to this contribution) I know that in the past 10 years, under the current Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Treasury has ta...

Alun Michael | 458 c230-1 (Link to this contribution) I think that that is a rather negative reason for keeping those powers within the Treasury, and I co...

Rob Marris | 458 c233-5 (Link to this contribution) I have to say that I find the Opposition’s arguments singularly unconvincing and somewhat contradict...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c235 (Link to this contribution) I cannot say what they are doing in Mongolia, but I did look into this issue and, to be fair, the ar...

Alun Michael | 458 c232 (Link to this contribution) Actually, there has been less change at the Treasury than at many other Departments over the past fe...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c232-3 (Link to this contribution) I agree with a lot of what the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael) said ...

Rob Marris | 458 c235 (Link to this contribution) That is helpful, and perhaps the hon. Lady will be able to help me further. My understanding of Stat...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c235-6 (Link to this contribution) I wish to speak to amendment No. 49, which is tabled in my name, and to amendments Nos. 50 to 59, ta...

Speaker | 458 c225-6 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 49, in page 2, line 6, at e...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c226 (Link to this contribution) Amendments Nos. 2 to 7 would transfer the residual ministerial functions from the Treasury to the Ca...

Alun Michael | 458 c227 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady asks which Department is least likely to interfere. Surely the question would more sen...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c230 (Link to this contribution) Is not the aim of the Bill to stop Ministers interfering in statistical production when they ought n...

Alun Michael | 458 c230 (Link to this contribution) I am more interested in the positive, and that is what I shall argue for. The defensiveness and the ...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c230 (Link to this contribution) Is that the right hon. Gentleman’s only positive reason for keeping the residual ministerial powers ...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c227 (Link to this contribution) I am coming to that. As the right hon. Gentleman says, we must also consider which Department is lik...

Rob Marris | 458 c227 (Link to this contribution) My understanding is that the Cabinet Office deals with social inclusion, for example. In fact, the M...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c227-9 (Link to this contribution) I certainly agree that whatever Department we choose, we are unlikely to eliminate entirely the poss...

Alun Michael | 458 c229 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the speech of the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (M...

Paul Flynn | 458 c258-9 (Link to this contribution) May I try to expunge from the minds of Members the dreary picture created by the hon. Member for Sev...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c258 (Link to this contribution) I welcomed the Bill initially. I wanted to support it enthusiastically, because it ought to have ens...

Tony Wright | 458 c257 (Link to this contribution) I shall be extremely brief, as I cannot share in the tribute paid by my hon. Friend the Financial Se...

Michael Fallon | 458 c255-7 (Link to this contribution) First, I want to thank the Minister, who has listened during the Committee stage, even though he did...

Alun Michael | 458 c253-5 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villiers) rather undervalued the process th...

Vincent Cable | 458 c251-3 (Link to this contribution) Yes; some of the strongest comments have come from Australia and Canada, for example. That might mer...

Alun Michael | 458 c255 (Link to this contribution) The point that I am making, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that the Bill, as amended today by amendment No. ...

Speaker | 458 c255 (Link to this contribution) Order. I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but I think that he is dilating beyond the ...

Brian Iddon | 458 c249-50 (Link to this contribution) I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary mentioned the registration service. I thank...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c246-9 (Link to this contribution) We have finally reached Third Reading. There was a point when we wondered when Report stage would ev...

David Gauke | 458 c251 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is strong feeling within the statistical community not only...

Vincent Cable | 458 c250-1 (Link to this contribution) I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon) on the success of his single-minde...

John Healey | 458 c244-6 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. The Bill establishes an independent statis...

John Healey | 458 c241 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments deals with a number of issues, both substantive and technical, that were ra...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c210-1 (Link to this contribution) I thank the Minister for his contribution. The intention behind amendments Nos. 40 and 41 was to try...

John Healey | 458 c210 (Link to this contribution) If my hon. Friend has failed to find the information, I can assure him, as I assured the Committee, ...

Rob Marris | 458 c210 (Link to this contribution) I have not; I have looked.

John Healey | 458 c210 (Link to this contribution) I suspect that my hon. Friend will find the information in the explanatory notes.

Rob Marris | 458 c210 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend referred to regulations that will be made under clause 44 and said that they would be...

John Healey | 458 c208-10 (Link to this contribution) I am glad that my hon. Friend is in his place. This is what I call the Marris amendment. It responds...

Rob Marris | 458 c208 (Link to this contribution) An excellent amendment.

Speaker | 458 c207 (Link to this contribution) Order. I remind the Minister that at this juncture we do not require him to move those amendments. T...

John Healey | 458 c207-8 (Link to this contribution) I beg your pardon, Madam Deputy Speaker. I meant to say that I wanted to speak to amendments Nos. 27...

John Healey | 458 c206-7 (Link to this contribution) This group of amendments relates to the confidentiality and data-sharing provisions of the Bill. As ...

Rob Marris | 458 c217 (Link to this contribution) May I point out, as I did in Committee, that it is not only a question of market-sensitive informati...

John Healey | 458 c216-7 (Link to this contribution) We have had a brief and succinct debate which, in many ways, retreads the detailed arguments that we...

Vincent Cable | 458 c214-6 (Link to this contribution) I shall simply say a few words in support of the amendments in this group that are in my name and th...

Mark Hoban | 458 c212-4 (Link to this contribution) I will speak to new clause 5 and amendment No. 23, which would remove clause 11 from the Bill. The ...

Rob Marris | 458 c216 (Link to this contribution) We discussed this subject extensively on Second Reading and in Committee. I welcome my right hon. Fr...

John Healey | 458 c211 (Link to this contribution) I welcome the way in which the hon. Lady is responding to the reassurances and information that I wa...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c211 (Link to this contribution) I am sure that the whole House is pleased to hear that additional clarification. It was our intenti...

Mark Hoban | 458 c212 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Speaker | 458 c212 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 23, page 5, line 20, leave...

Speaker | 458 c203 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 41, in page 14, line 40, a...

John Healey | 458 c198 (Link to this contribution) The short answer is that we setting up an entirely new system, based in statute, with a powerful ind...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c197-8 (Link to this contribution) It has been suggested that the House should have a greater role in holding Ministers to account when...

John Healey | 458 c197 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Lady’s understanding is partially correct. Any statistic that the board has subjected to an...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c197 (Link to this contribution) I thank the hon. Gentleman for that correction. If the code has been complied with, it ““must”” desi...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c202 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move amendment No. 40, in page 14, line 40, at end insert—

Speaker | 458 c199 (Link to this contribution) I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. The House having divided: Ayes...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c198-9 (Link to this contribution) I am very disappointed that the Minister persists in restricting the remit of the board merely to pr...

Peter Bottomley | 458 c198 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the Minister will want to review the debate. If he loses the vote, I hope that he wil...

Rob Marris | 458 c197 (Link to this contribution) It says that it ““must”” do so.

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c204 (Link to this contribution) As Len Cook has said, the problem is that there is no consistency about how information can be used....

Mark Hoban | 458 c205 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point, but the devil is in the detail. Subsection (4) lists...

Rob Marris | 458 c205 (Link to this contribution) Survey data have been mentioned by several Members, including the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member...

Mark Hoban | 458 c205 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is poised to intervene again, so I shall give way.

Mark Hoban | 458 c206 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, but this is our once in a generation opportunity to legislat...

Rob Marris | 458 c205-6 (Link to this contribution) My thanks to the hon. Gentleman. My understanding is that existing legislation is already covered b...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c203-4 (Link to this contribution) Once again, we are trying to be helpful with these amendments. We believe in the principle that indi...

Charles Walker | 458 c204 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Lady explain what type of personal information is covered by the amendment?

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c191-2 (Link to this contribution) I shall speak mainly to amendment No. 34. The heart of the debate is whether there should be a two-t...

Michael Fallon | 458 c192-3 (Link to this contribution) New clause 4 is extraordinary, in the sense that we should not have to insert it into the Bill. It w...

Speaker | 458 c187 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 16, in clause 10, page 5, l...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c186-7 (Link to this contribution) I do not propose to press the new clauses and amendments in this group to a Division. We had a chanc...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c187 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

John Healey | 458 c185-6 (Link to this contribution) There is a strong professional connection and a line of accountability on professional matters. The ...

Alex Salmond | 458 c194 (Link to this contribution) As I recall, Dr. Goudie gave, in his submission to the Scottish Parliament, a clear indication that ...

David Gauke | 458 c193 (Link to this contribution) It has often been asked during the Bill’s passage why the code of practice will not apply to all off...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c193-4 (Link to this contribution) When the Bill was published, many people wanted to support it not because it would necessarily bring...

John Healey | 458 c195-6 (Link to this contribution) On the contrary, there will be clearly identified and published national statistics and the board wi...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c196 (Link to this contribution) The Minister still seems to misunderstand my new clause and amendments. They do not require the boar...

John Healey | 458 c196 (Link to this contribution) I think that we are making some progress. The hon. Lady will recognise that clause 8 sets out the bo...

Peter Bottomley | 458 c196-7 (Link to this contribution) Has the Minister consulted the Statistics Commission on how the Government could respond to this ide...

Brooks Newmark | 458 c194-5 (Link to this contribution) I, too, shall speak briefly in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs. Villie...

John Healey | 458 c195 (Link to this contribution) The debate on this subject has been shorter than debates on it in previous proceedings, but it has n...

Brooks Newmark | 458 c195 (Link to this contribution) The point that I was trying to make is that the Treasury is obsessed with making matters more comple...

John Healey | 458 c197 (Link to this contribution) I have not had any formal submissions from the commission on this proposal, although I do not know w...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c197 (Link to this contribution) Clause 12(2) explains that if the board determines that the code has been complied with, it can desi...

Michael Fallon | 458 c175 (Link to this contribution) Yes, I do, but given the way the amendment is drafted, a whole series of other statistics that we do...

Alun Michael | 458 c175 (Link to this contribution) Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Fallon | 458 c175 (Link to this contribution) No, I am not going to give way again. I support new clauses 1 and 3 and I welcome, with the critici...

Alun Michael | 458 c175 (Link to this contribution) I am trying to understand the hon. Gentleman’s objection to the wording. Serving the public good sur...

Michael Fallon | 458 c175 (Link to this contribution) That may be, but the point that I am trying to make is that this particular drafting is Whitehall-ce...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c179 (Link to this contribution) The Minister is talking about oversight, but clause 29(4) states:"““The Board may direct the Nationa...

John Healey | 458 c179 (Link to this contribution) I shall explain in a little while how the person who is legally accountable to Parliament for a part...

David Gauke | 458 c175-6 (Link to this contribution) I wish to make two brief observations on this group of amendments. The first relates to the comments...

John Healey | 458 c176-9 (Link to this contribution) As at each stage of consideration of the Bill, we have had a very well informed, informative and use...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c179 (Link to this contribution) The Minister says that the National Statistician will, in effect, run the executive office—in other ...

John Healey | 458 c179-80 (Link to this contribution) Because the amendment would restrict and diminish the important role of the National Statistician. T...

Rob Marris | 458 c180 (Link to this contribution) I understood my hon. Friend to say that the executive office would be roughly akin to the current ON...

John Healey | 458 c180-1 (Link to this contribution) My hon. Friend is right: the PCS is concerned about such issues in relation not only to the ONS but ...

Michael Fallon | 458 c181 (Link to this contribution) I am still not quite clear about the right of direct access. The Financial Secretary says that it ex...

John Healey | 458 c181-3 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman, better than anyone in the House at present, will understand the nature of the fr...

Adam Afriyie | 458 c183 (Link to this contribution) In business and every other walk of life, the ultimate power that any individual—or perhaps Governme...

John Healey | 458 c183 (Link to this contribution) As I said earlier, the appointment of the chair of the board will be made ultimately by the Crown, o...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c185 (Link to this contribution) In the next group of amendments, we will look at the code of practice, which makes it clear that sta...

Alun Michael | 458 c174 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that some statistics might be needed because of the requirements ...

Michael Fallon | 458 c174 (Link to this contribution) I certainly prefer the term ““statistics”” to ““official statistics”” because, as we debated endless...

Rob Marris | 458 c174 (Link to this contribution) Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that, in the light of the aims that he has just referred to, new c...

Michael Fallon | 458 c173-4 (Link to this contribution) I shall shortly speak to amendment No. 1, which stands in my name, and Government amendment No. 48, ...

Vincent Cable | 458 c172 (Link to this contribution) The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. What I am not clear about—perhaps the Minister will clarify ...

Adam Afriyie | 458 c172 (Link to this contribution) I did not serve on the Committee, but I think that the hon. Gentleman’s point strikes at the heart o...

Vincent Cable | 458 c171-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is right. The National Statistician is an enormously important job and the Bill should ref...

Julia Goldsworthy | 458 c171 (Link to this contribution) Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the other concerns is that the role of the National Statistici...

Vincent Cable | 458 c170-1 (Link to this contribution) I agree with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Alun Michael) that there are many...

Alun Michael | 458 c169-70 (Link to this contribution) I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s comments. My point is not that everything needs to be d...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c165-6 (Link to this contribution) We wished to amend clause 7 to provide space for new clause 2, which was not selected. The amendment...

Rob Marris | 458 c165 (Link to this contribution) Amendment No. 9 would leave out clause 7(1), but how would new clause 3 improve clause 7(2)—I do not...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c166-7 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s clarification. Clause 7 refers only to the board. The change ...

Rob Marris | 458 c166 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Amendment No. 9 would remove clause 7(1). The objectives that t...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c167 (Link to this contribution) Certainly. I was about to conclude, but I give way to my hon. Friend.

John Bercow | 458 c167 (Link to this contribution) Will my hon. Friend give way?

John Bercow | 458 c167 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my hon. Friend for generously giving way, particularly in the circumstances of her ...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c167 (Link to this contribution) One of the changes introduced by the Bill is to pass responsibility for the RPI from the Chancellor ...

Alun Michael | 458 c167-9 (Link to this contribution) Anybody who believes in an evidence-based approach to public policy must welcome the Bill and our de...

John Bercow | 458 c169 (Link to this contribution) I both understand and appreciate the thrust of the right hon. Gentleman’s remarks. May I put it to h...

Alun Michael | 458 c162 (Link to this contribution) I am following the points about independence and objectivity with great interest. What does the hon....

Theresa Villiers | 458 c161-2 (Link to this contribution) New clauses 1 and 3 and amendments Nos. 8 to 15 in this group seek to clarify the respective functio...

Speaker | 458 c160-1 (Link to this contribution) With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 3—Role and objectives of the N...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c160 (Link to this contribution) I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Theresa Villiers | 458 c164-5 (Link to this contribution) Yes, certainly. My amendments reflect my particular concerns about clause 29, which makes the Nation...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c164 (Link to this contribution) I did not table such an amendment. To be honest, I puzzled over the issue in Committee, but on balan...

John Bercow | 458 c164 (Link to this contribution) I heard my hon. Friend’s explanation of her thinking. Does she think that there is a qualitative dif...

Theresa Villiers | 458 c162-4 (Link to this contribution) Statistics have many purposes, one of the most crucial of which is informing decision making in gove...

Rob Marris | 458 c164 (Link to this contribution) I may have got lost somewhere in the hon. Lady’s amendments, but I understand the separation that sh...

Mark Hoban | 458 c204-5 (Link to this contribution) I rise to speak to amendment No. 24, which picks up the theme raised by the hon. Member for Falmouth...

Stewart Hosie | 458 c194 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps it is for the Treasury to answer that. What I do know from the publication of the most recen...

Speaker | 458 c231 (Link to this contribution) Order. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to restrict his remarks to the amendment before the House.

Theresa Villiers | 458 c187-91 (Link to this contribution) New clause 4 and amendments Nos. 16 to 22 would extend the full rigour of the reforms to all officia...

Adam Afriyie | 458 c183 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister for giving way again so generously. I asked who would appoint members ...

David Gauke | 458 c216 (Link to this contribution) The arguments against the Government’s approach on pre-release have been made throughout proceedings...

John Healey | 458 c183-5 (Link to this contribution) The chair will be appointed in the way that I explained, but members of the board will be appointed ...

Subjects

Disclosure of information

Codes of practice

Devolved matters

Accountability

Departmental responsibilities

Intelligence services

Government departments

Prime Minister

Ministerial powers

National security

Northern Ireland