Tax Credits (Income Thresholds and Determination of Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2015

My Lords, we were very clear in the general election and in our manifesto that we would be introd...

My Lords, the Leader of the House has given us the impression that there is some convention that ...

Hear, hear!

My Lords, let me be absolutely clear. Any of the amendments that have been put down today, with t...

With respect to the amendments in the names of my noble friend Lady Hollis and the noble Baroness...

No, I do not accept what the noble Lord says. As I have already said, those amendments withhold t...

The leader of the Liberal party described this House as,

“a system which is rotten to the c...

What I do know, and I really feel this sincerely, is that noble Lords take their responsibilities...

I think I understood the noble Baroness correctly when she said a few moments ago that she accept...

When I quoted that from the Joint Committee on Conventions’ report, the point I tried to emphasis...

Hear, hear!

My Lords, would the noble Baroness answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Richard? Doe...

I am not defining them in such a way because they have not been defined in such a way by this Hou...

Moved by

Baroness Manzoor

My Lords, there has been a lot of discussion in the run-up to this debate about the role of this ...

My Lords, 104 years ago, a Liberal Government decided that this House should not have jurisdictio...

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. I will come to that point and address it in the bes...

Does the noble Baroness not acknowledge that there is at least a certain irony in that, for five ...

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. He is right to raise that point and quite right to a...

Will the noble Baroness just reflect on the fact that, in terms of accountability to the electora...

I do assume that this House has a mandate. We are back to the constitutional role of this House.<...

I should inform the House that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call any of the other ame...

My Lords, I rise to speak to the amendment that stands in my name on the Order Paper, which would...

If the noble Baroness is right that the Government do not have a majority in the other place, why...

I will attempt to answer that question.

Before she does, may I just ask the noble Baroness a question arising from her amendment? Does sh...

I was talking to Jacob Rees-Mogg MP the other day and he said to me that the trouble is that the ...

I am sorry that my conversation with the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has been quoted. That is n...

I think I owe my apologies to the noble Lord. According to the Library just over two fatal and th...

Can the noble Baroness say how many of her so-called precedents were budgetary matters?

As I understand it, this House has every right to place amendments to statutory instruments on an...

Will the noble Baroness answer the very simple question? How many of those Motions were on budget...

None of those Motions was on the Budget. That is the constraint on this House as I understand it....

My Lords, this just is not the case. The fact is that there was a vote in the other place last we...

I apologise to the noble Lord, whom I greatly respect, but I did not imply that the Conservative ...

I am a little puzzled about the powers the noble Baroness has to understand what Members of Parli...

My Lords, eight Conservative MPs—some of them senior MPs; former Cabinet Ministers, indeed—have p...

If I understand her correctly, the noble Baroness is saying that a significant number of Conserva...

That is exactly the point I just made. The important point is that if we pass these regulations t...

My Lords, does my noble friend not find it interesting that the Government are currently taking a...

I thank my noble friend Lord Listowel. I should mention that a petition signed by 270,000 members...

My Lords, on the amendment standing in my name, two issues concern this House. The first is wheth...

My Lords, I echo the last words of the noble Baroness—

Bishop!

My Lords, I deeply regret that the Government’s regulations lead me, and others in this House for...

The right reverend Prelate is speaking very movingly and rightly about the injustice and sufferin...

I am grateful for that intervention. I believe that our first duty is to speak and in a variety o...

My Lords, we have just heard some very moving speeches on this matter. I have no doubt that, as t...

The right reverend Prelate.

I am sorry, the right reverend Prelate. That was a bit of a promotion because we are in the prese...

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord not agree that the conventions to which he has referred...

Not at all. I am stating the present practice, according to Erskine May, in relation to matters o...

Does the noble and learned Lord think that a statutory instrument that cannot be amended is a sui...

That is the arrangement that was proposed in the Tax Credits Act, which was passed by the Labour ...

My Lords, I have several points to make about the substance of these regulations. First, this rep...

My Lords—

My Lords—

My Lords, perhaps I may suggest, given the very large number of noble Lords who want to speak, th...

My Lords, as a Cross-Bencher in this House, I see it as my job to offer my best expertise and kno...

My Lords, I support the amendment to the Motion as tabled by the right reverend Prelate the Lord ...

Before right reverend Prelate sits down, could I just ask him why, if he believes that this will ...

I was persuaded by listening to the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, explaining the other da...

My Lords, there seem to be two strands to this emotive phrase “constitutional crisis”, which is w...

I suspect that I am not the only one on this side of the House who feels torn on this issue. The ...

The noble Lord seems to imply that because this is a tax credits issue, as was said by the noble ...

With respect to the noble Baroness, the constitution is more important than nitpicking. This is a...

Does the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, think that the Clerk of the Parliaments was nitpicking when he ...

The point is that this is a budgetary matter and budgetary matters are the prerogative of the ele...

I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer listens very carefully to the contribution of the for...

My Lords, I shall try to put my points briefly. I do not want anything that I say to be taken as ...

Would the noble Lord wish to amend the Companion to the Standing Orders and guide to the Proceedi...

What I am saying is that the combination of the convention about statutory instruments and the fi...

Any!

Any—but not since 1911 have a Government been challenged on a matter of this sort, which establis...

The noble Lord says that no Government have been challenged on a matter of this sort since 1911. ...

I shall not contest the precedent given by the noble Lord, which I have not myself considered. Th...

I point out to my noble friend Lord Butler that the House of Commons has a very similar request f...

If the House of Commons asks for more information, it should be provided. But the constitutional ...

Would the noble Lord realise that he is turning his back and not addressing the House, and he sho...

I am sorry, my Lords, and I apologise if I have committed a constitutional impropriety, but I sti...

I have worked in many roles, and I have listened to the noble Lord giving advice. I know that aft...

My Lords, I think it is a little unfair of the noble Baroness to ask me to interpret the statemen...

I am so sorry to intervene on the noble Lord. I have an observation. The director of the Institut...

Oh!

I shall give a short version then:

“The Parliament Acts of 1911 and 1949, establishing the ...

My Lords—

My Lords—

The House was listening to the noble Lord, Lord Butler.

My Lords, I am afraid I have been rather frustrated in trying to put my points as briefly as I co...

My Lords, in response immediately to what the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has just said, there was n...

The noble Lord has set out an alternative policy which the Government might have followed, but th...

My Lords, can I ask the noble Lord how your Lordships’ House should interpret the point of order ...

My Lords, I am bound to say to the noble Lord that I am not sufficiently qualified medically, pol...

Could it not have been that they did it that way because that is what the Act said they had to do...

The Act gave the Government the power to do it. It did not compel them to do it. If they wanted t...

I am so sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he is referring to a previous case in a way which ...

I hear what the noble Baroness says but, as far as the financial privilege of the House of Common...

My Lords, I want to a repeat a few words of the noble Lord, Lord Richard. I, too, have been liste...

My Lords, I have two claims to briefly intervene in the debate. First, it was my proposals in the...

You can say that again.

Various Chancellors and Chief Secretaries might put it more strongly, and a former one just has. ...

Hear, hear!

My Lords, I spent three months every year debating with the Treasury the proposals that it put fo...

My Lords, in light of what the noble Lord just said, does he think that it was right for Mr Camer...

We have been round this particular point because the noble Lord has made it several times. More t...

My Lords, I hate to interrupt the noble Lord, for whom I have the greatest respect, but he said t...

I leave it to the Leader of the House and the noble Earl who will be winding up to put it in spec...

I agree entirely with the point made by the noble Lord. Does this not show, though, that our powe...

That is obviously something we can consider for the future, and on first hearing sounds an attrac...

My Lords, we have been going at this now for well over two and a half hours. Strong points have b...

My Lords, I accept what the noble Lord, Lord Low, says but I want to make one or two points that ...

Surely there is an analogy with Finance Bills. They come to your Lordships’ House but we pass the...

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that the financial convention has not stayed absolutely the...

My Lords, this has been a quite extraordinary debate. It is unusual for your Lordships’ House to ...

I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. It is important that she does so because she has incor...

I think that that is a bit of an angels-on-pinheads defence, but I take the point that she makes....

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness, but we did hear from the noble and learned Lord, Lord...

I can certainly help. In 2002, the legislation that went through that allowed for amendments to t...

An important point for the House to understand is that the original Bill—the Tax Credits Act 2002...

My Lords, I took those two Bills through this House. I can tell the Minister that such considerat...

They would not, because certification of a Bill is done by the Speaker.

In some ways, the Minister makes my point for me. Major issues and changes such as this are under...

But it is a blocking amendment. Nobody can compel the Government to do what the amendment says, a...

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, seems to be under the impression that, contrary to what the Leader s...

Can she tell us exactly how much the proposal of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, would cost?

My noble friend Lady Hollis is very keen to tell the noble Lord.

Yes, my Lords. I had hoped that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in his courteous way, would have he...

My Lords, the point made by my noble friend is that this is a choice for the Government, not a ne...

Hear, hear!

Threats to suspend the House of Lords; to pack it with 150 new Tory Peers, or to “clip our wings”...

My Lords, the privilege falls to me, as Deputy Leader, of winding up this debate, which has prove...

The analysis of the Institute for Fiscal Studies is very clear in incorporating the effects not o...

I do not dispute that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has looked at these things, but the figure...

Will the noble Earl say where the evidence is to support that assertion about eight out of 10 hou...

The evidence was in the Budget analysis, which I am sure the noble Baroness has read—the distribu...

My Lords, is the Minister saying that eight out of 10 people currently on tax credits and subject...

What I said was that eight out of 10 working families, whether or not on tax credits—

Oh!

Well, it is an important point to factor in because the creation of and rises in the national liv...

My Lords, for clarification, will the Minister focus on the two out of 10 whom he says are losers...

Let me address that. It has been said by some noble Lords, and the noble Baroness’s question impl...

The Deputy Leader is giving a defence of the Government’s position that does not give much of an ...

The trouble with comments like that is that they fail to take account, very often, of the things ...

Maybe I was not entirely clear. That was the leader of the noble Earl’s party in Scotland.

Look, I cannot take those comments in any sort of context, having not read them. Of course, I acc...

Will the noble Earl say how these figures compare with the budget for the nation’s entire defence...

The regulations before us account for £4.4 billion of public expenditure in the next financial ye...

The Living Wage Commission, which I chair, was working in conditions when the economic climate wa...

We are doing so. We are doing so through the national living wage. We should welcome the fact tha...

Sorry—this is about the impression that was being given. I am suggesting that the Chancellor of E...

Interestingly, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said in terms in its report that the Chancellor m...

I sense the noble Lord is coming to a conclusion. Does he accept that the amendment of the noble ...

Of course, I do accept that. The amendment of the noble Baroness is expressly asking the Governme...

I am really quite surprised at the noble Earl, given all his experience and the respect in which ...

There is a clear difference in the wording—that is unarguable—but the effect is exactly the same....

I beg the noble Earl’s pardon. I have the greatest respect for him, but in her speech my noble fr...

I cannot gainsay the Clerk of the Parliaments; heaven forbid if I did that. Perhaps what was mean...

Oh!

—the traditionally worded fatal amendment is that in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor...

Does the Minister think that it would be impossible, if either of these two amendments were passe...

The problem is that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, holds the Gover...

There is a very important distinction between the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, La...

I understand what the noble Baroness is seeking to achieve here, but the fact is that the House o...

My Lords, I thank everyone who has contributed to this debate. Noble Lords will be relieved to he...

Moved by

Baroness Meacher

My Lords, you will be glad to know I will speak extremely briefly. I thank many noble Lords for s...

My Lords, before I put the Question, I should inform the House that, if this amendment is agreed ...

Moved by

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, we have had the arguments. I wish to test the opinion of the House.