UK Parliament / Open data

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Wednesday, 6 February 2013, in the House of Lords.
Clauses 27 to 32 agreed to. Bill reported with amendments.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
743 cc265-317 
Session
2012-13
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Growth and Infrastructure Bill 2012-13. Brought from the Commons.
Tuesday, 18 December 2012
Bills
House of Lords
Growth and Infrastructure Bill. Constitution Committee (HL) tenth report.
Wednesday, 16 January 2013
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee eleventh report.
Wednesday, 16 January 2013
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Pannick | 743 c265 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Pannick

81D: Clause 27, page 34, line 15, at end insert—

“(d) the...

Lord Pannick | 743 cc265-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 81D and 92 are in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. They are ...


Show all contributions (124)
Baroness Brinton | 743 cc267-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, on Second Reading I expressed my concerns about the whole concept behind this clause. V...

Lord Vinson | 743 c269 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare an interest in that for many years I was chairman of the Industrial Co-partne...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 743 cc269-270 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, at Second Reading I opposed these provisions. In my view this is yet another attempt by...

Lord Martin of Springburn | 743 cc270-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I support all those who have spoken, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Turner. She is...

Baroness Afshar | 743 cc271-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have worked for a long time with minority groups who employ their women in a system t...

Lord Strasburger | 743 c272 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I declare an interest. Before I joined this House I was a serial entrepreneur. I have s...

Lord Flight | 743 cc272-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when these proposals were announced, I was somewhat lukewarm towards them, for some of ...

Lord Morris of Handsworth | 743 cc273-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the issues in this debate on Clause 27, and the other amendments, have not changed. I t...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 cc274-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, it would be extremely helpful if the clause contained a clearer definition of “profit s...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc275-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Flight, on being the first speaker in more t...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 c276 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Lord draw a distinction between the legal advice to be given in the potential sale...

Lord Adonis | 743 c276 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we are talking about individual employees who are seeking to take jobs, which is a diff...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 c276 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord is correct; that is what I am saying—you need two sets of lawyers in any case.

...
Lord Adonis | 743 cc276-7 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord therefore proposes a system that is even more complex and onerous than is envisage...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc277-8 (Link to this contribution)

Noble Lords will not be surprised to know that I was expecting a somewhat lively debate on this g...

Lord Flight | 743 c278 (Link to this contribution)

Just before my noble friend passes over this matter, I would like to raise one issue that is not ...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc278-9 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend for that question. The shares are treated as taxable income, although the...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Does my noble friend accept that this is exactly the group of companies that Ministers in another...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed, it may well be the case, but it is not my position to stipulate exactly which particular ...

Lord Adonis | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Did I understand the Minister to say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Flight, that these share...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, indeed, I can confirm that the shares that are received are taxable, so tax would be payable...

Lord Adonis | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Tax payable at the point of receipt?

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, it would be in the month following receipt of the shares.

Lord Adonis | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

Is the noble Viscount aware that he has made quite a significant change in government policy in t...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c279 (Link to this contribution)

I shall come back to the noble Lord very quickly if what I have said is incorrect, but I am prett...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for intervening again but this point is absolutely critical to the Governme...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

As promised, I will revert to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, as quickly as possible to confirm what...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

Will the noble Viscount please also assure the Committee that there will be an absolute bar on co...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to think that I could say yes to that. However, it is up to the company to decide, a...

Lord Adonis | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, with great respect to the noble Viscount, he is trying to say that the shares are and a...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

I think that I have made the position very clear. The Chancellor is looking at this but I have sa...

Lord Stoddart of Swindon | 743 c280 (Link to this contribution)

I have to say that the noble Viscount has not made the position clear to me. It may well be that ...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc280-1 (Link to this contribution)

First, it depends on whether the employee shareholders are 40% taxpayers, but I can confirm that ...

Lord James of Blackheath | 743 c281 (Link to this contribution)

Can the noble Viscount please explain what would happen in the event of a rescue rights issue?

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c281 (Link to this contribution)

I will certainly have to come back to my noble friend with a full answer to that question.

...

Lord Pannick | 743 c282 (Link to this contribution)

I am very grateful to the Minister and, indeed, to all noble Lords who contributed to this valuab...

Lord Adonis | 743 c283 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Adonis

82: Clause 27, page 34, line 15, at end insert—

“( ) Any i...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc283-4 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the purpose of Amendment 82 is the same as that of the amendment in the name of the nob...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

I will be speaking at the usual moment. I would like to hear the speeches of other noble Lords fi...

Lord Adonis | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I note that the noble Viscount is not even defending the fact that the guidance was not...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord makes a very good point. I stick by the words in my letter that further guidance w...

Lord Adonis | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, but can he tell us whether that will be before Rep...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

I will obviously need to return to the noble Lord with a clear answer on that. Right now I cannot...

Lord Adonis | 743 c284 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the House needs to be aware of the situation that we are in at the moment. The defence ...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c285 (Link to this contribution)

To be fair, I did not precisely say that. I said that I would get back to the noble Lord as soon ...

Lord Adonis | 743 c285 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, with each intervention the noble Viscount is more forthcoming. Now it is possibly later...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c285 (Link to this contribution)

That is not a guarantee. I am saying that I am hopeful that the information will be available thi...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc285-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I spoke too soon. The noble Viscount has now moved back again and now we are not even a...

Baroness Brinton | 743 cc286-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, these two amendments are trying to achieve the same objective. I commend the noble Lord...

Lord Pannick | 743 c287 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I share the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the noble Baroness, ...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc288-9 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Amendments 82 and 90 seek to add protections for jobseekers, should they refuse to appl...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c289 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister accept that even if the Government say that it is likely that very few companie...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c289 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to pick up only one of the points made by my noble friend. It is important, and I am...

Lord Pannick | 743 c289 (Link to this contribution)

Does the Minister agree that the simplest way for the guidance to address the matter would be for...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c289 (Link to this contribution)

I have not seen the guidance but I do not believe that it will say that.

There are two furt...

Lord Adonis | 743 c289 (Link to this contribution)

Several times the Minister has said that the guidance would be updated with regard to any particu...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

As I explained earlier, I am not in a position to give the Committee that information just at the...

Lord Adonis | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the Minister has come to the Committee to tell us that he cannot begin to tell us the b...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

I can only reply to the noble Lord that I am not in a position to explain the guidance because I ...

Lord Pannick | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the Minister for his patience in giving way. Will he deal with this point? If th...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

On that particular point, it is important again to emphasise that each case involving an employee...

Baroness Warnock | 743 c290 (Link to this contribution)

I wish to raise one question. How can a case-by-case examination of a claimant’s refusal determin...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c291 (Link to this contribution)

I can only re-emphasise that when a case is taken on a case-by-case basis, this means that, if an...

Lord Adonis | 743 c291 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the noble Viscount ended by saying that he hoped that I would withdraw the amendment in...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c291 (Link to this contribution)

I just want to re-emphasise what I was trying to say about the document being 3,000 words long. I...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c292 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for intervening on an intervention, but I just wanted clarification on this...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c292 (Link to this contribution)

I stand corrected—it is indeed 3,000 pages long.

Lord Adonis | 743 c292 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I repeat: it is the Government’s responsibility to prepare the changes to the law and t...

Lord Adonis | 743 c292 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Adonis

83: Clause 27, page 34, leave out lines 17 and 18

Lord Adonis | 743 c292 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly at the beginning of this debate because I want to comment on...

Lord Strasburger | 743 cc292-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, when I spoke to the first group of amendments I declared my interests as an entrepreneu...

Lord Deben | 743 cc293-4 (Link to this contribution)

First, I apologise for the fact that I have been abroad and therefore not able to follow that par...

Lord Deben | 743 c294 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, speaks from her seat, but she has put forward some opinions that...

Lord Pannick | 743 cc294-5 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, posed a series of questions about the benefits of Clause 27. Perhaps ...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c295 (Link to this contribution)

Clause 27 requires employees to give up a range of rights. Many of these rights are ones that the...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc295-7 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, Clause 27 is about providing further choice to the range of employment statuses that em...

Lord Strasburger | 743 c297 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the noble Viscount for giving way. That was not my question. My question was: which of th...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc297-8 (Link to this contribution)

The overall package of the employee shareholder, with the extra risk as well as the extra reward,...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c298 (Link to this contribution)

I was slightly confused by some of the Minister’s earlier response on the employee status for emp...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c298 (Link to this contribution)

I can confirm that it is an entirely new status, so the individual who agrees with their employer...

Lord Deben | 743 c298 (Link to this contribution)

Could my noble friend help the House, before we come to Report, by giving some estimate of how ma...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c298 (Link to this contribution)

I thank my noble friend for that question. It is extraordinarily difficult to ascertain a precise...

Lord Strasburger | 743 c298 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry to keep jumping up and down, but I still have not heard from the Minister how the with...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

I believe that I have answered my noble friend’s questions, and it is possible that I would not s...

Baroness Turner of Camden | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister has just said that it is not clear whether an employee shareholder is an employee. I...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

It may help the noble Baroness if I state again that the employee shareholder agreement between t...

Lord Pannick | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

The noble Viscount said a few moments ago that it is the Government’s estimate that up to 6,000 c...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

I would be delighted to furnish the noble Lord with whatever information I can find, but I remind...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for intervening again. Can the noble Viscount explain what niche group of companies t...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c299 (Link to this contribution)

I re-emphasise that the Government stick by their idea and plan that the provision will suit smal...

Lord Adonis | 743 c300 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we are full of admiration for the way the noble Viscount seeks to defend these proposal...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c300 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for interrupting and thank the noble Lord for giving way. I made it absolutely clear ...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc300-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, all I need to do to let these proposals collapse is allow the noble Viscount to carry o...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c301 (Link to this contribution)

That was indeed why I asked the noble Viscount about employee status and whether this was a new f...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc301-2 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I note what the noble Baroness has said. I strongly support the extension of the right ...

Lord Adonis | 743 c302 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Adonis

93: Clause 27, page 36, line 5, at end insert—

“(7) This s...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc302-3 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we are now on the issue of the cost of these proposals to the Exchequer. I would like t...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c303 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I apologise for referring again to the coalition agreement, but I am concerned that the...

Lord Deben | 743 c304 (Link to this contribution)

I hope that my noble friend will be very careful in his response to this because underneath there...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c304 (Link to this contribution)

I should like to clarify the point that I was trying to make about finding a tax loophole that pr...

Lord Deben | 743 c304 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry if I misunderstood my noble friend, and of course I accept what she has just said. I f...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c305 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for intervening again and I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. There is absol...

Lord Deben | 743 c305 (Link to this contribution)

I do not disagree with that. However, I think that this proposal is going to be so unattractive t...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc305-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, first, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Deben for extolling the virtues of em...

Lord Adonis | 743 c306 (Link to this contribution)

Could I ask a specific question? The OBR said that it expected the cost of this policy to rise to...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc306-8 (Link to this contribution)

It gives me the opportunity to answer the noble Lord’s question by saying that the OBR has stated...

Lord Deben | 743 c308 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the fact that if this works, arguing about how much it costs the Treasury is not sensible?...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c308 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to my noble friend for clarifying that and, of course, he is absolutely right. I fe...

Lord Adonis | 743 c308 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I do not intend to press the issue today. Let me be brief in response to the noble Visc...

Lord Adonis | 743 cc308-310 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have put down a Motion that Clause 27 should not stand part of the Bill to stimulate ...

Lord Pannick | 743 c310 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I agree with all that has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. Clause 27 is wrong ...

Lord Flight | 743 c310 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, although I welcome the suggestion that the Chancellor might allow there to be no income...

Baroness Brinton | 743 cc310-1 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I am grateful for the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Pannick. I will...

Baroness Donaghy | 743 c311 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, I have not spoken to the other amendments to the Bill although I did refer to this issu...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc311-5 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, we have heard many opinions about this clause. The Government are taking this action to...

Lord Flight | 743 c315 (Link to this contribution)

Moved by

Lord Flight

95: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause—

“Gui...

Lord Flight | 743 c315 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, the amendment was intended to be part of the debate on Clause 27. Given that the employ...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 cc315-6 (Link to this contribution)

My Lords, in Amendment 95 my noble friend Lord Flight proposes a new clause relating to the publi...

Baroness Brinton | 743 c316 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise for intervening. I am grateful for many of the points the Minister raised about guida...

Viscount Younger of Leckie | 743 c316 (Link to this contribution)

My noble friend makes a very fair point. Of course I will copy in all noble Lords who should or w...

Lord Flight | 743 c316 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for his response. I am pleased to find that the matter is in hand. I therefo...

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