UK Parliament / Open data

Animal Welfare (Exports)

Backbench debate on Thursday, 13 December 2012, in the House of Commons, led by Laura Sandys. The answering member was David Heath.
Twenty-first backbench debate (second half). Motion that this House has considered the matter of live animal exports and animal welfare. Agreed to on question.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
555 cc477-535 
Session
2012-13
Chamber / Committee
House of Commons chamber
AHVLA Report
Monday, 4 March 2013
Written statements
House of Commons
Livestock: Transport
Monday, 4 March 2013
Written statements
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Laura Sandys | 555 c479 (Link to this contribution)

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of live animal exports and animal ...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c479 (Link to this contribution)

Can the hon. Lady advise us whether that was in any way gold-plating of EU regulations?


Show all contributions (170)
Laura Sandys | 555 c479 (Link to this contribution)

I am sure the horses and sheep would have had something to say if it had been. That legislation w...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 c479 (Link to this contribution)

If I could take the hon. Lady back to the vessel that carries the animals across the channel, doe...

Laura Sandys | 555 cc479-480 (Link to this contribution)

The trade used to be out of Dover, but there was an issue with berths and some of the animal tran...

Lord Beamish | 555 c480 (Link to this contribution)

Is this not another example of the UK gold-plating regulations while the rest of Europe ignores t...

Laura Sandys | 555 c480 (Link to this contribution)

That is an important point. The commissioner told me that one of his key priorities was to enforc...

Lord Beamish | 555 c480 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Lady aware of any countries that are not complying with the minimum standards set out...

Laura Sandys | 555 c480 (Link to this contribution)

I do not have precise knowledge of which countries are not complying with the regulations. Animal...

Lyn Brown | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

On the question of port inspections, I was concerned to note that only 45 out of almost 40,000 an...

Laura Sandys | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

There are issues about the EU, and there are issues about the competent authority. The competent ...

Robert Buckland | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

On the point about enforcement, my hon. Friend might be aware that article 26.6 of European Counc...

Laura Sandys | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

I welcome my hon. Friend’s great knowledge of EU regulations. I will come to that point in a mome...

Lord Dodds of Duncairn | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

Some farmers in Northern Ireland say that they are at the mercy of the prices that local slaughte...

Laura Sandys | 555 c481 (Link to this contribution)

I know that the trade in Ireland is much bigger than it is on the mainland—or certainly than it i...

Henry Smith | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. I, too, would support a ban on live animal ...

Laura Sandys | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I totally agree. The transportations that go out of Ramsgate can come not only from the north of ...

Duncan Hames | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad that my hon. Friend is focusing on the welfare of animals. Does she agree that that is ...

Laura Sandys | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

Absolutely. Animals can be transported across Europe, and the journey need not involve crossing w...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

I confess that I have not finished my research for the debate, so, given that we have reached it ...

Laura Sandys | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

As I understand it, there are two quite distinct trades. The animals exported through my port are...

Kerry McCarthy | 555 c482 (Link to this contribution)

According to Compassion in World Farming, about 4.5 million sheep were slaughtered in the UK in 2...

Laura Sandys | 555 c483 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s knowledge in this field, which is extensive.

I asked the ...

Nicholas Dakin | 555 c483 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is setting out the case very clearly. She makes the point that animal welfare is ce...

Laura Sandys | 555 cc483-4 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with hon. Gentleman. A point about gold-plating was raised earlier. It applies to some of...

Andrew Bingham | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend feel that if the cost were put on the operator, it might discourage some of t...

Laura Sandys | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

It is crucial that we accept and tolerate only the very best transporters in the sector. I feel s...

Tessa Munt | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

My understanding is that there is a cost to licensing. I shall use the example of George Neville’...

Laura Sandys | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

That sounds like the Rolls-Royce of transportation, and I would be very pleased if the animals co...

Lord Beamish | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

Is the hon. Lady aware of anyone who has been refused a licence, and how many licences have been ...

Lindsay Hoyle | 555 c484 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We are now 25 minutes into this debate, when 10 to 15 minutes was expected. The hon. Lady ...

Laura Sandys | 555 c485 (Link to this contribution)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sure that the Minister will be happy to answer the questions p...

Kerry McCarthy | 555 c485 (Link to this contribution)

I congratulate the hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) on her efforts to arrange a debate...

Henry Smith | 555 c485 (Link to this contribution)

Today we are discussing live animal exports, but there are live animal imports as well, and some ...

Kerry McCarthy | 555 cc485-7 (Link to this contribution)

I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman speaking out on animal welfare issues, as I know he has d...

Roger Williams | 555 c487 (Link to this contribution)

We all respect the hon. Lady’s views on these matters, but I fear that an eight-hour limit would ...

Kerry McCarthy | 555 cc487-8 (Link to this contribution)

I was coming to that. The motion in the European Parliament was passed by 555 votes to 56, which ...

Glyn Davies | 555 cc488-9 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate, as it is directly relevant to my life experience. I...

Glyn Davies | 555 c489 (Link to this contribution)

I was going to finish there, but as the hon. Lady wants to intervene, I shall pretend I have anot...

Lyn Brown | 555 c489 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I listened intently to the points he made. I did not agree w...

Glyn Davies | 555 c490 (Link to this contribution)

I am terribly sorry if my speech came across as any sort of confessional. Throughout my involveme...

Paul Flynn | 555 c490 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman may be leading us to a more compassionate future if he decides to finish the s...

Glyn Davies | 555 c490 (Link to this contribution)

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is being completely serious, but I rather agree with the...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 cc490-2 (Link to this contribution)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies), who demonstrated hi...

Simon Hart | 555 c492 (Link to this contribution)

I noted the hon. Gentleman’s comments about an eight-hour transporting limit, but that would prec...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 cc492-3 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. The point was dealt with earlier by my hon....

Lord Stunell | 555 c493 (Link to this contribution)

I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman is saying and he is setting out his case very clearly. Does ...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 c493 (Link to this contribution)

That is a very good question to conclude the points I am making to the Minister. As I said in my ...

Roger Williams | 555 cc493-4 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who ...

John Leech | 555 c494 (Link to this contribution)

Does my hon. Friend agree that zero tolerance should include stricter penalties for abuses of the...

Roger Williams | 555 cc494-5 (Link to this contribution)

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. People who are found to have repeatedly committed crimina...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying about animal movements. Even in the...

Roger Williams | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point and his experience of representing his constituency is impo...

Tessa Munt | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

I have spoken already about executive transport for cattle and sheep, with which I am familiar. I...

Roger Williams | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The discussion this afternoon shows that although some h...

Robin Walker | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is making a very good speech, and I would join in the many compliments to my h...

Roger Williams | 555 c495 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed—not only enforcement at the ports, but the right sort of facilities at the ports to deal, ...

Paul Flynn | 555 c496 (Link to this contribution)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Roger Williams | 555 c496 (Link to this contribution)

I will give way to my good friend from Newport.

Paul Flynn | 555 c496 (Link to this contribution)

Always a friend of the farmers on this subject.

We heard about the very distressing case of...

Roger Williams | 555 c496 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. It may be that that lorry was stopped for a suspected traffi...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c496 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time; he is very kind. Perhaps I shou...

Roger Williams | 555 cc496-7 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Those of us who have been involved in animal pr...

Thomas Docherty | 555 cc497-8 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, to have caught your eye. It has been an excellent consensual de...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c498 (Link to this contribution)

Opting for an all-out ban right now would be against EU law, but does the hon. Gentleman agree th...

Thomas Docherty | 555 cc498-9 (Link to this contribution)

No, I do not agree that we should have an outright ban. If the hon. Lady had been here since the ...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c499 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry, but the condescension coming from the hon. Gentleman is hard to bear. He is implying ...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c499 (Link to this contribution)

Obviously I speak regularly with the National Farmers Union of Scotland, and I know that colleagu...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c499 (Link to this contribution)

As I said, I strongly disagree with the implicit assumption that cruelty is involved. I produce l...

Thomas Docherty | 555 cc499-500 (Link to this contribution)

It is fair to say that the hon. Gentleman and I do not agree on every issue, so the fact that we ...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c500 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman suppose that the entire membership of the RSPCA are not sensible people? ...

Thomas Docherty | 555 cc500-1 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the word the hon. Lady wants is “patronising” rather than “patronage”, but I accept ...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c501 (Link to this contribution)

I will indeed do that. One of my reasons for calling for a wide-ranging review is not only to foc...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c501 (Link to this contribution)

That is a good point. I would like three major players in the industry to give evidence—the farme...

Neil Parish | 555 cc501-3 (Link to this contribution)

It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sou...

Roger Williams | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend and I met the English Beef and Lamb Executive this morning, and I pay tribute to i...

Roger Williams | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

There must be similar organisations in Scotland and Northern Ireland. These organisations do wond...

Neil Parish | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

I endorse my hon. Friend’s comments about EBLEX, which is doing a good job in promoting our lamb ...

Bob Stewart | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

The west country is in England!

Neil Parish | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

Parts of the west country are in England, but I will not enter into that debate this afternoon.

Thomas Docherty | 555 c503 (Link to this contribution)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it would be appropriate for our Committee to look at the condi...

Neil Parish | 555 cc503-4 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Gentleman—we could look at all of that. One of the issues that I have spent...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c504 (Link to this contribution)

I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, for not being here at the beginning of the debate. Unfortunate...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 c504 (Link to this contribution)

Several of us who spoke earlier—I accept that the hon. Lady has greater difficulties than others ...

Caroline Lucas | 555 cc504-5 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which I genuinely think is extremely helpful and...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c505 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady has mentioned guarantees in live export. As a crofter, I cannot give guarantees on ...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c505 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I suppose that he makes my point. There is a par...

Roger Williams | 555 c505 (Link to this contribution)

Some of us are concerned that people do not draw a distinction between export and the movement of...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c505 (Link to this contribution)

That is a helpful intervention. I would much prefer to see many more small, local abattoirs aroun...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c505 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady seems to be missing the point that was made earlier about some of our smaller commu...

Caroline Lucas | 555 c506 (Link to this contribution)

What I am saying is that we could be more creative in looking for solutions. In other countries w...

Caroline Lucas | 555 cc506-8 (Link to this contribution)

No, because I want to make some progress, if I may.

Calf exports have been declining amid c...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c507 (Link to this contribution)

I am puzzled. Does the hon. Lady not recognise that, given the current location of abattoirs, an ...

Caroline Lucas | 555 cc507-9 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but we need to look for solutions to that proble...

John McDonnell | 555 cc509-510 (Link to this contribution)

I, too, apologise for arriving late to the debate. I do not have the same excuse as the hon. Memb...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c510 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend has been an absolute champion of agricultural workers during his time in Parliamen...

John McDonnell | 555 c510 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend always knows the point of vulnerability in a debate. I have never been convinced a...

Bob Stewart | 555 c510 (Link to this contribution)

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman and reading about this issue. Surely when t...

John McDonnell | 555 cc510-1 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) will come back and argu...

Jim Fitzpatrick | 555 c511 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point about ensuring that adequate resources are available to do ...

John McDonnell | 555 cc511-2 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the Minister heard the question; he does not need me to repeat it.

The Ministe...

David Amess | 555 c512 (Link to this contribution)

Madam Deputy Speaker, I apologise to you and the House for not being present at the start of the ...

Baroness Primarolo | 555 c512 (Link to this contribution)

Order. That causes some difficulty. We have now had three Members in a row taking part in a debat...

David Amess | 555 c512 (Link to this contribution)

I have been a Member of Parliament since 1983 and I absolutely agree with everything you have sai...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c512 (Link to this contribution)

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s reasons for being late. Does he agree that doing television is ...

Baroness Primarolo | 555 c512 (Link to this contribution)

Order. We are really not going to follow that route. We are considering a serious subject, and I ...

David Amess | 555 c513 (Link to this contribution)

The late Member of Parliament for Newham, North-West, Tony Banks, was a great champion of animal ...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c513 (Link to this contribution)

I disagree about animal exports, but would the hon. Gentleman concede that sometimes animals can ...

David Amess | 555 c513 (Link to this contribution)

I recognise that hon. Members rightly represent all sorts of interests. I have said that I suppor...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c513 (Link to this contribution)

Like me, the hon. Gentleman supports banning the use of wild animals in circuses. One of the solu...

David Amess | 555 cc513-5 (Link to this contribution)

I cannot believe for a moment that that would be the result if the motion was supported. I want t...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c515 (Link to this contribution)

I am intrigued about the carol service for animals. Was it per chance, “The cattle are lowing, th...

Baroness Primarolo | 555 c515 (Link to this contribution)

I think the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) has finished, so, if that was your speech, M...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 cc516-7 (Link to this contribution)

It is a privilege to follow such a commendable contribution. I understand that a few weeks ago on...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c517 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend is making an eloquent case. He just mentioned personal experience. Will he say a b...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c517 (Link to this contribution)

I shall return later to the specific things that the inquiry should consider—it will not be an ex...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 cc517-8 (Link to this contribution)

Indeed. I am just worried about any inheritance potential, so I had better continue.

For ma...

Roger Williams | 555 c518 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about the reduction in the number of abattoirs. In th...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c518 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman makes a good intervention, which points to a long-term trend. Some of the reas...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c518 (Link to this contribution)

I give way to the Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 555 c518 (Link to this contribution)

As the Minister probably knows, an announcement on Vion is imminent, but does the hon. Member for...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c518 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady is absolutely right about the popularity of small abattoirs increasing as people be...

Bob Stewart | 555 c519 (Link to this contribution)

Is it not also true that a local abattoir gets better meat because there is less stress on the an...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c519 (Link to this contribution)

I am not in a position to make a completely evidence-based judgment on that. I can only say that ...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c519 (Link to this contribution)

Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend out. The answer is that it depends on the stress that the anima...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c519 (Link to this contribution)

My hon. Friend makes a perfectly formed point.

I shall proceed at a rate of knots now, beca...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 cc519-521 (Link to this contribution)

I am glad the Minister confirms that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fi...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c521 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister shakes his head, so the advice is still the same. In that case, our focus must be on...

Angus Brendan MacNeil | 555 c521 (Link to this contribution)

Is not the key point the fact that when it comes to the crossing of borders, animal welfare is th...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 cc521-2 (Link to this contribution)

Yes, the hon. Gentleman makes a point that is absolutely valid. We strongly believe in that focus...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 555 c522 (Link to this contribution)

A local farmer recently approached me to say that for the first time he has won an order to trans...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 c522 (Link to this contribution)

That is not what I am proposing. What I am proposing is a live debate. Given the existence of a p...

Roger Williams | 555 c522 (Link to this contribution)

I think that the public often assume that all animal transport takes place in the worst condition...

Huw Irranca-Davies | 555 cc522-4 (Link to this contribution)

As we know, the big issues that hit the headlines in the press involve the worst possible example...

David Heath | 555 cc524-5 (Link to this contribution)

I agree with the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) that this has been an extremely good...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 555 c525 (Link to this contribution)

We have the opportunity to recognise and celebrate this high standard of animal welfare in this c...

David Heath | 555 c525 (Link to this contribution)

That is precisely the case, and now is the time to level that playing field for our producers. We...

Chris Williamson | 555 c525 (Link to this contribution)

On that wider theme, what would the Minister say about the importation of foie gras? Would he be ...

David Heath | 555 c525 (Link to this contribution)

My personal view is that people should not buy foie gras, because of the method of production. It...

David Heath | 555 c526 (Link to this contribution)

I have just given way to the hon. Gentleman and he cannot really have two bites in the same sente...

Peter Bottomley | 555 c526 (Link to this contribution)

I am sorry that I have not been in the Chamber for the whole debate, but I have been here for qui...

David Heath | 555 c527 (Link to this contribution)

I think we need to do two things. I agree with the hon. Gentleman and I shall discuss the circums...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c527 (Link to this contribution)

We all seem to be on the same side of the argument. Does the Minister agree that if we went for a...

David Heath | 555 c527 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Gentleman is right. We must be careful what we wish for because there are sometimes unfo...

David Heath | 555 c527 (Link to this contribution)

I will now give way to the hon. Gentleman as he is persistent.

Chris Williamson | 555 cc527-8 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way to me for the second time. My hon. Friend the Member fo...

David Heath | 555 cc528-9 (Link to this contribution)

No, I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. Yes, he is right to read out that article. The legal ...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c529 (Link to this contribution)

I would like to take the Minister back to the report he has received. He will be aware that the N...

David Heath | 555 cc529-531 (Link to this contribution)

I was just about to come to that. The hon. Gentleman raises an important matter. Nothing would ha...

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering | 555 c531 (Link to this contribution)

We had similar protests at Brightlingsea when I was an MEP. At that time the port of Dover had cl...

David Heath | 555 c531 (Link to this contribution)

As we have heard, Dover is no longer used. There may be more than one reason for that. I am not s...

Laura Sandys | 555 c531 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the Minister for all the work he is doing, but what he outlined before the intervention b...

David Heath | 555 cc531-3 (Link to this contribution)

The hon. Lady makes a very important point. The EU Commission itself notes that the level of enfo...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c532 (Link to this contribution)

The Minister is doing an excellent job of setting out a complex set of arguments. He will recall ...

David Heath | 555 c534 (Link to this contribution)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that and this is probably an appropriate place to...

Thomas Docherty | 555 c534 (Link to this contribution)

What about the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies)?

David Heath | 555 c534 (Link to this contribution)

I have mentioned the hon. Member for Ogmore many times and covered what he said almost word for w...

Laura Sandys | 555 cc534-5 (Link to this contribution)

I thank the hon. Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and for Brighton, Pavilion (C...

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