UK Parliament / Open data

Scotland Bill

Committee of the Whole House (HL) and Debate on bills on Tuesday, 28 February 2012, in the House of Lords.
Scotland Bill. Lords committee stage third day. Clauses 22 to 29 agreed to. Clause 30 under consideration when sitting adjourned.
Type
Parliamentary proceeding
Reference
735 c1181-268, 1277-92 
Session
2010-12
Department
Scotland Office
Legislative stage
Committee stage
Chamber / Committee
House of Lords chamber
Related items
Scotland Bill. Brought from the Commons. Explanatory Notes HL Bill 79-EN also published.
Wednesday, 22 June 2011
Bills
House of Lords
Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. Seventeenth report on: Armed Forces Bill; Welfare Reform Bill; Scotland Bill; Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill - Government response. (Lords Minutes).
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Constitution Select Committee (HL) seventeenth report on the Scotland Bill.
Wednesday, 13 July 2011
Parliamentary committees
House of Lords
Proceeding contributions
Lord Lyell | 735 c1283 (Link to this contribution) Hear, hear!
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1283 (Link to this contribution) I think that probably deals with all the football questions, and with probably just about everything...

Show all contributions (285)
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1283 (Link to this contribution) Would the Minister like to speculate on why it is not doing that? Why is it deliberately delaying it...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1283 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will certainly not be drawn into speculation. I have already said that it must be in the...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1282 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord might be aware that Mr Ally McCoist, the manager of Rangers, was complaining bitterly...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1282 (Link to this contribution) There is another thing I have learnt this evening. I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I apprecia...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1283 (Link to this contribution) On the point of legislative consent, could my noble friend help me by explaining why we are proceedi...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1283-4 (Link to this contribution) We have a Bill; it is important that we press on, and the legislative consent Motion could come at a...
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 735 c1284 (Link to this contribution) I thank the noble Lord for giving us that figure. Does that figure include the 31,000 civil servants...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1284-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, on the first point, this will be the cost in isolation of the changes necessary to enable ...
Lord Lyell | 735 c1278 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I declare an interest as honorary patron of another Titan of the Scottish football game, w...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1278-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, for all the reasons that I set out in my first contribution to this Committee when it conv...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1268 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, such is my respect for my noble friend Lord Howe, who has been waiting patiently, that I a...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1277-8 (Link to this contribution) As your Lordships will see from the Marshalled List, I gave notice of my attention to oppose the Que...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1267 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I come back to where I started, which is that it is the Government's position that we have...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1282 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, this is proving to be an education, not least because we have another debate in which ther...
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 735 c1280 (Link to this contribution) I apologise to the Committee that I was not present through the earlier parts of the discussion of C...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1280-2 (Link to this contribution) My noble friend Lady Liddell—through me as a conduit—raises some very interesting questions for the ...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1279 (Link to this contribution) Does my noble friend agree that perhaps that is why Mr Alex Salmond has decided that he is switching...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1279-80 (Link to this contribution) Taking my own advice, I am utterly reluctant to express any opinion that is even marginally related ...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I refer to the contributions made already. Under the Bill, could the Scottish Parliament reduce corp...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will not stand here and criticise or question the way that another place goes about its ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I think that the noble Lord made at least three points. The first concerned the degree of scrutiny i...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I refer to scrutiny and point out, again with some diffidence to the noble Lord, that this is a cons...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1261-2 (Link to this contribution) I intervene with some trepidation in this fashion because I made clear in my remarks in this debate ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1261 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, recommendation 3.3 of the Calman report states: "““The Scottish Parliament should be given...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1260 (Link to this contribution) Of course we await legislative consent, but there have been many detailed discussions; there have be...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1260 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend's examples concern changing the rates of existing taxes rather than new ta...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1259-60 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may ask my noble friend to consider the politics of this, as opposed to what the rule book...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1258-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not a constitutional lawyer, but those who drafted the Bill, who are quite clear abou...
Lord Cormack | 735 c1258 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way, but it would be invalid under the Parliament A...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1258 (Link to this contribution) The answer is yes and yes to my noble friend. The introduction of new taxes is a constitutional chan...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1258 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble friend again, but this is central. For the sake of argument, l...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1257-8 (Link to this contribution) Again, perhaps I may be permitted to go through the complete steps needed to introduce any new tax. ...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1265 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the Minister. In citing the creation of the Scottish variable rate for income tax i...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1265 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, while I am not steeped in as many years of Scottish politics, maybe the benefit of being a...
Lord Lang of Monkton | 735 c1266 (Link to this contribution) I believe that the prediction my noble friend just quoted is for the five years from 2010 to 2015. I...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1265-6 (Link to this contribution) No; the point I made was that it went through this House, as would an order as envisaged here. Any n...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1267 (Link to this contribution) Earlier I was justly chastised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for calling this a small matter. As t...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1266-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the directional effect that I have set out for the effect of what is proposed in this Bill...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1264 (Link to this contribution) The question I asked is so important on this issue because the Minister himself said this issue is t...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1264 (Link to this contribution) I listen to all the guffawing going on, but many noble Lords have been in government here and there ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1265 (Link to this contribution) Will my noble friend allow me one more go, at the risk of tedious repetition? Would my noble friend ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1264 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, forgive me if I stick to the clause as we have it. It is a separate matter, which relates ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1263 (Link to this contribution) I thought that my agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, would not last terribly lo...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1263 (Link to this contribution) I have a summary of the majority and the minority reports of the Scotland Bill Committee of the Scot...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1263 (Link to this contribution) The answer is a very simple yes. They could come forward with such a proposal, and the Government wo...
Lord McFall of Alcluith | 735 c1263 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may intervene again. I do not have a clue about what the Minister's answer to my question ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1264 (Link to this contribution) I am not going to give way immediately to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, because that woul...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1263 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not sure that it is profitable to speculate about what, at some time in the future, a...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1262-3 (Link to this contribution) On this point, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, mentioned on a number of occasions the real politics of...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1245-6 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I can say a few words on this amendment, as one of the people whom the noble Lord, Lord Kerr...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1245 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I should try to finish my remarks.
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1245 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will allow me, surely the point he is making is valid. If the post-referendum deci...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1245 (Link to this contribution) I wonder whether when the dialogue is complete, other people might answer your question.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1247 (Link to this contribution) I wish I had not given way; that intervention was not all that helpful to my argument. If the noble ...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1246-7 (Link to this contribution) Way back in the mists of time, I used to construct a series of social surveys. One of them was a ser...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1246 (Link to this contribution) When we get to the Minister's reply, I think we will find that it is not already in the Bill in the ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1246 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I am delighted to be able to disagree with him....
Lord Sewel | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) The problem of the deficit is really a red herring, because the deficit would be controlled by borro...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) If the deficit is not important to the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, what is the answ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could help the noble Lord by asking him a question. If his position is that the Scottish P...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) I agree that the Bill proposes a very eccentric procedure. I was going to go on to say that, first, ...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) I cannot really see that distinction. I would be more worried about the level if the level affected ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1244-5 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord can help me. He is quite right: I think this is a dreadful Bill which was int...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1244 (Link to this contribution) Yes, that is reasonable. We certainly agree on the macro point. We disagree on whether there is a po...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1243-4 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has challenged me on a point of principle. The argument surely must be that macroecon...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1244 (Link to this contribution) May I finish my argument? That is not widely believed up there. One could set out the definition tha...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1254-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one thing on which I think we are all agreed is that we are getting to the heart of the Bi...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1255 (Link to this contribution) The tax-creating powers in the Bill, as the noble Lord acknowledged, were not recommended by Calman....
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1253 (Link to this contribution) I hope that the noble Lord might help me. Is he saying that he thinks this clause is too broad in it...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1253-4 (Link to this contribution) I am not saying that this is devo-max; I am saying that this is the Bill. The Bill is a very signifi...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1256-7 (Link to this contribution) If the noble Lord will forgive me, we are coming to income tax under the next clause. I am sure that...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1257 (Link to this contribution) On that point, perhaps my noble friend could deal with the argument here. If I may say so, he has pu...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1255-6 (Link to this contribution) If my noble friend would bear with me, we will get to this point and to other points he has made. If...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1256 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not very clear about the Scottish rate of income tax. I am a Scot; I live in Scotland...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1257 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord accept that there are fundamental differences between using orders and using pri...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1257 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, again, I will get there in the logical flow of the argument, if my noble friend will permi...
Lord Lang of Monkton | 735 c1247-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate because I have not had the opportunity to d...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1248-50 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, that we owe a debt of gratitude to both...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1250 (Link to this contribution) I thought my noble friend Lord Maxton said that. I am sorry; it was my noble friend Lord Sewel. If I...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1250-1 (Link to this contribution) I will not make a smart-alec point—although I should not say ““Smart Alec”” in this context in this ...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1251 (Link to this contribution) Someone had to create the sales tax in the first place. I might be wrong but I do not think that in ...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1251 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. The comparison to the United States is very ill jud...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1251 (Link to this contribution) May I just answer this point first, if noble Lords will allow me? I am perfectly willing to try to d...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1251-3 (Link to this contribution) We have already had the benefit of a very interesting contribution from my noble friend Lord Morgan,...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1292 (Link to this contribution) I am convinced by the eloquence and brevity of both Front Benches. I beg leave to withdraw the amend...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1288 (Link to this contribution) The hour is late and I am not going to make a speech, but I will just rise to the fly to say one thi...
Baroness Adams of Craigielea | 735 c1289 (Link to this contribution) On that point, was it not the case that the Scottish Parliament in fact did quite the opposite of th...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1288-9 (Link to this contribution) It was partially self-inflicted, as my noble friend beside me says. However, that damage is also a s...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1288 (Link to this contribution) However, the damage to the Labour Party in Scotland—
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1290-2 (Link to this contribution) Sorry, I meant my noble friend Lord Foulkes. Maybe I should start again. The reason I do not suppor...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1289-90 (Link to this contribution) That is very much so and it was quite interesting, as I listened to the debate earlier on taxation, ...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1290 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I had not intended to speak in this debate for the simple reason that I do not support the...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1285 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we need the legislative consent Motion. I am not sure I can help my noble friend much furt...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1285 (Link to this contribution) On a slightly peripheral question, I am getting very worried that we are setting a precedent here. T...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1286 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for picking me up on that because the technical position is just as...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1285-6 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend. So that we are clear about this, am I not right in saying that we ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1286 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may add to that one other point that we will come to at a later stage in the Bill. There a...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1286 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I really cannot comment on the date for Prorogation. We will see it when it comes, so that...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1286 (Link to this contribution) 52: Clause 30, page 23, line 5, after ““the”” insert ““Devolved””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1287 (Link to this contribution) As I explained about six hours ago, I have put down a series of amendments to put ““devolved”” in fr...
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 735 c1287-8 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, makes a very important point. We have spent a lot of time in the debat...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1288 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise as somebody else who supported devolution. There have been one or two occasions dur...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I am not familiar enough with the borders to say to what extent roads come in and out of Scotland an...
Lord Sanderson of Bowden | 735 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I may be able to help the noble and learned Lord. The road that I use to go to Berwick—and no doubt ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1203 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, where I disagree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth is in our attitude to devolution as a w...
Earl of Caithness | 735 c1203 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I listened to the debate I wondered whether my noble friends had driven through Europe....
Viscount Younger of Leckie | 735 c1202-3 (Link to this contribution) I take my noble friend's point, which is a good one that should be discussed. It brings up the point...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 735 c1203 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I just want to raise one little matter about the drafting of Amendments 48 and 49 tabled b...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1204-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, three amendments in this group—Amendment 47A, 47B and 50A—are in my name and those of my n...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1205 (Link to this contribution) I cannot think of an example—perhaps my noble friend Lord Steel could help me—but there are roads in...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1203-4 (Link to this contribution) Is there not a proposal for harmonisation of speed limits and other matters in the European Union fo...
Earl of Caithness | 735 c1204 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, one of the countries was not in the EU.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1201 (Link to this contribution) I guess it does, and that is another absurdity but this is what happens when, for political reasons,...
Viscount Younger of Leckie | 735 c1201-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my name is added to Amendments 47 and 50. However, I should like to focus my thoughts in g...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1202 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend, but is he not making an argument for the whole of the United ...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1197 (Link to this contribution) I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness very much for his reassurances and I ...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1198 (Link to this contribution) 47: Clause 24, page 17, line 6, at end insert— ““( ) Section 89 of the Road Transport Act 1988 (test...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1198 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, in moving Amendment 47, I shall speak also to Amendment 50 in this group. We are dealing h...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1198-200 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I think it is in order for me to speak to Amendment 48, which is in this group, at this st...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I do not disagree with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, but is it not true that the speed limit for HGV...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1200 (Link to this contribution) I do not have a clue, but whatever they think, Governments, as I well know, come and go, as do Minis...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1200 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord has made a very interesting point. Of course, if his second point about drink-driving...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1181-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships' House is delighted to return to Committee on the Scotland B...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1184-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, want to address Amendment 45, to which the noble Lord has just referred. This amendment in...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1185 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton. This may a...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1185 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord mean 1606, not 1707?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1185-6 (Link to this contribution) It is nice to have something on which to disagree with the noble Lord. In 1603, we had the union of ...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 735 c1186 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am not certain that I fully agree with my noble friend.
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 735 c1186 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Let us try to identify what we are talking about. The Scottish Crown Estate is a pre-union i...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1181 (Link to this contribution) 44B: Clause 22, page 15, line 8, leave out ““Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner”” and insert ““Crown...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1186 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wonder whether I can clarify the history on this. The union of the Crowns in 1603 formed...
Earl of Mar and Kellie | 735 c1186 (Link to this contribution) No, I do not. No matter what the noble Lord says, the Scottish Crown Estate existed. I was going to ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1186 (Link to this contribution) I hate to mention this, but since then we have had the union of the Crowns and the union of the Parl...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I certainly believe that there should be transparency in the appointments process. Of course, we wil...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1189 (Link to this contribution) The Minister mentioned the appointments process, but is there a clear understanding or requirement t...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1188-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been an interesting and...
Lord Lyell | 735 c1187-8 (Link to this contribution) I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Selkirk for his amendment and strongly support it. I had ...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1187 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Curry, has talked about fishing in Scotland, and my noble friend Lord...
Lord Curry of Kirkharle | 735 c1187 (Link to this contribution) I do not for one moment want to contribute to the history lesson but can contribute on the basis tha...
Lord Sanderson of Bowden | 735 c1186-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to intervene in this debate particularly in relation to Amendment 45, tabled in the...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I give way to the noble Lord, who may be able to shed light on this.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1189 (Link to this contribution) I should say in support of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I think he was asking for rather more ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1189-90 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble Lord for that explanation. Indeed, the commissioners are appointed under ...
Lord Curry of Kirkharle | 735 c1189 (Link to this contribution) As the first Crown Estate commissioner who will be appointed under Nolan rules, I can say that those...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1191 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend but the problem with, "““Crown Estate Commissioner for Scot...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1191 (Link to this contribution) I am a seeker after truth here, but the intervention of my noble friend illustrates the absurdity of...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1190 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, there is no intention to change the manner of appointments under the Office of Public Appo...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1190 (Link to this contribution) Can we have assurances that, after the Bill is enacted, they will continue to be appointed under the...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1190-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the position is that it must be a person who knows about conditions in Scotland as they re...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1190 (Link to this contribution) But the problem about ““Scottish”” being used as an adjective to qualify three words, or two words, ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1191 (Link to this contribution) If my noble and learned friend will allow me, if that argument stands then how have we managed to ge...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General for Scotland for giving way. When I...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1191-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall explain. The BBC Trust is constituted in a very different way and using the expres...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1191 (Link to this contribution) If you follow the logic of the argument that the noble and learned Lord has just put, it implies tha...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1191 (Link to this contribution) I am not sure that we are getting away with it. I am actually trying to propose that it is the commi...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, would perhaps ““Crown Estate Commissioner with special responsibility for Scotland”” solve...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) For the reasons given by my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart, the Duke of Atholl may not actual...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Would a way out be to change it to the ““Crown Estate Commissioner from Scotland””?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) Because I have been asked to answer to your Lordships' House on matters relating to the Wales Office...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1192 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lady's suggestion certainly sounds much more promising. It could mean that we were not put...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1193-4 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my noble friend for the shoring up. The very fact that we have had this debate on t...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1192-3 (Link to this contribution) I apologise for interrupting my noble and learned friend so frequently, but his argument needs a bit...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1195 (Link to this contribution) 45: Clause 22, page 15, line 9, leave out from ““who”” to end of line 11 and insert— ““(a) is qualif...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1194-5 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in what proved to be a much more interesti...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1195 (Link to this contribution) 46: Clause 23, page 15, line 28, at end insert— ““( ) Regulations applying in Scotland may only be m...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1195 (Link to this contribution) In view of the reassurances given by my noble and learned friend, I shall not move the amendment. A...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1196 (Link to this contribution) I hope my noble and learned friend will agree that it would always be appropriate in these circumsta...
Lord Selkirk of Douglas | 735 c1195-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I wish to speak to this amendment briefly as it is a probing amendment. It would ensure th...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1196-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, Clause 23 gives Scottish Ministers the power to license Scottish doctors to prescribe thre...
Lord Browne of Ladyton | 735 c1196 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I speak only because of my support for a previous amendment that was withdrawn, and I shal...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1208 (Link to this contribution) There is another problem, if we take the example of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. If the noble Lord ha...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1208 (Link to this contribution) The Highway Code is quite explicit: you should be aware of the amount you have drunk the night befor...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1208 (Link to this contribution) I do not think the real issue in respect of penalties is about proportionality but to do with the ty...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1207 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps the noble and learned Lord would explain to me what considerations he has in mind ...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1205-7 (Link to this contribution) I am obliged to the noble Lord for that information. A number of issues are raised by these amendme...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1207 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I could first respond to the noble Lord's intervention. I have to say with the greatest resp...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1207 (Link to this contribution) I will in a moment. The answer is that you should know what the limit is before you set out on your ...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1207 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, will my noble and learned friend give way?
Lord Maxton | 735 c1212 (Link to this contribution) I have one small question. I take the point about local authorities imposing speed limits as they wi...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1211-2 (Link to this contribution) Yes, it is the Secretary of State for Transport—I hope that I said ““she””—and that would be the cas...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 735 c1209 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord raises an interesting point. I would not wish to give any definitive opinion as it is...
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan | 735 c1209 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble and learned Lord leaves that point about two different jurisdictions, can he perhap...
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom | 735 c1208-9 (Link to this contribution) As the debate continues, it seems we are missing something. If I think back to my days in the law, w...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1211 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry, I am rather confused. Which Secretary of State are we talking about here? Is it the Secr...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1209-11 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which has given rise to a number o...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1209 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord threw me that one and I will just take it up. It is true that there are a...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1218 (Link to this contribution) I said: is not new Labour a monument to that principle?
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1218-9 (Link to this contribution) It is a monument? That is a good question for a start. That has implications in itself. As my former...
Lord Lyell | 735 c1219 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord moves on, would he suggest that the First Minister might take over the Scottis...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1219-20 (Link to this contribution) Well, he tried to get on television to talk about rugby, purporting to be an expert on it, and blame...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Martin, was a friend of mine—I shall see him afterwards. But he ...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1220 (Link to this contribution) I am grateful to my ““noble friend”” for giving way. Does he think that if his amendment had been in...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 735 c1220 (Link to this contribution) Just for the sake of facts, I should point out that my noble friend travelled the world before he be...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1220-1 (Link to this contribution) That is a very interesting point. I had not thought about it. It needs some time to be thought about...
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy | 735 c1221 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the amendment of noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, says, "““obtain consent to the discussions from...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1221 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lady, Lady Saltoun of Abernethy, is absolutely right. The amendment was written rather has...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1221 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, perhaps I may marginally disagree with my noble friend's answer to the noble Lady. There m...
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke | 735 c1221-2 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it was not my intention to intervene on this amendment but I could not quite resist it. On...
Lord Martin of Springburn | 735 c1222-4 (Link to this contribution) I say to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I was only kidding, so I hope he does not go after me fo...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1224 (Link to this contribution) I am very grateful to the noble Lord for moving this amendment because it has enabled there to be a ...
Lord Morgan | 735 c1224-5 (Link to this contribution) I will make one or two remarks as a non-Scottish person, although the purpose of this amendment in p...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1226 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I will privately reveal that I have not been briefed by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Lad...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1213-4 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, my noble friend is building a mountain out of a molehill. These matters are not exactly go...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1214 (Link to this contribution) There is a fundamental difference between comparing the Scotland/England situation with that of Nort...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1212-3 (Link to this contribution) The answer is that it would be in the Highway Code and the question would stipulate whether it meant...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1213 (Link to this contribution) This is all very amusing, and I take the point that I should have said dual carriageways—motorways, ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1212 (Link to this contribution) Before we leave the Highway Code, let us say that this legislation has gone ahead and, for the sake ...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1214 (Link to this contribution) Is the Minister's position that if, as in the case that I cited, a person drives across the border a...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1214 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I give the example of the United States, which is one country where there are different sp...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1214-5 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, at the moment you could be in a position in which you gain penalty points, which could cum...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1216-7 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 47 withdrawn. Amendments 47A and 47B no...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1217 (Link to this contribution) 51: Clause 27, page 19, line 43, at end insert— ““( ) Before commencing discussions with representat...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1217-8 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, we suddenly seemed to be making rapid progress there, so we should now take a little time ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1218 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, is not new Labour a monument to that principle?
Marquess of Lothian | 735 c1215 (Link to this contribution) I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said. He quite rightly said that there are signs ...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1216 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I thank all those who have participated in the debate. As noble Lords are aware, we have e...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1216 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace, who did a formidable job o...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1218 (Link to this contribution) I did not hear that; my noble friend Lord Maxton was talking.
Lord Brougham and Vaux | 735 c1239 (Link to this contribution) I advise the Committee that if Amendment 51A in this group is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 51B...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1237-9 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I shall try to be brief. The issue is covered by a number of other amendments grouped with...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1237 (Link to this contribution) 51ZA: Clause 28, page 20, line 29, at end insert ““, and (c) section 29(2)(f)””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1236-7 (Link to this contribution) Indeed. Temperance is one other. I accept what my noble friend said. I shall move on because the nob...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1235 (Link to this contribution) The noble Lord is underestimating the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. When he was ambassador in America and I...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1236 (Link to this contribution) I accept that. My title, as my noble friend Lord Morgan knows, is ““of Cumnock””. Keir Hardie lived ...
Lord Morgan | 735 c1236 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry to interrupt the entertaining remarks of my noble friend. I am glad that he made the poin...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1236 (Link to this contribution) I knew that he was not from Edinburgh but I did not realise that that stretched to all parts of Scot...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1242-3 (Link to this contribution) I have a great deal of sympathy with the argument that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, has just expresse...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1242 (Link to this contribution) I have no idea. The important point is that it should have the power to raise funds as it wishes for...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1243 (Link to this contribution) The argument that the Scottish Executive should have control over the level of taxation is one thing...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1239-40 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 51A, which is in my name. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Dru...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1240 (Link to this contribution) Yes, and also, if we look at the way in which this has developed, I do not know how we come to this ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1240 (Link to this contribution) Is it not an oddity that this House is not meant to consider taxation at all and yet the Bill provid...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1241 (Link to this contribution) Does the noble Lord not think that the strangest thing about that whole incident was Alex Salmond co...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1242 (Link to this contribution) Can the noble Lord just say what new taxes he thinks the Scottish Parliament might invent using this...
Lord Sewel | 735 c1229 (Link to this contribution) One of the difficulties in relation to Europe and getting a common view—almost parity between UK Min...
Lord Maclennan of Rogart | 735 c1228 (Link to this contribution) I was a Minister who attended the Agriculture and Fisheries Council in the 1970s, although I did not...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1227-8 (Link to this contribution) I am sorry but I am not aware that the First Minister is going around the world arguing that people ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1227 (Link to this contribution) I did not say anything that was insulting, and I do not do innuendo. I am quite direct. I said that ...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1227 (Link to this contribution) It may well be true that it is their choice. If so, it is a great mistake. I hope it is the view of ...
Lord Maxton | 735 c1227 (Link to this contribution) To be fair—and not even to be fair—the fact is that the Scottish nationalists are not here through t...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1227 (Link to this contribution) Yes, but the innuendo today was that they must not be allowed to talk to foreign Governments because...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1227 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps the noble Lord would care to read the Scottish nationalists' manifesto.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1235 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for a helpful reply. As he said, it has been a good deb...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1234 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, that is the stuff of the negotiation that takes places ahead of these Council meetings. It...
Lord Wigley | 735 c1233-4 (Link to this contribution) I understand the practicalities and that it is desirable, if at all possible, to have a united line,...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1234-5 (Link to this contribution) As I indicated, the request was for a statutory right to attend. In a hypothetical situation, even i...
Duke of Montrose | 735 c1234 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps my noble and learned friend will tell me if I am wrong, but my impression is that currently ...
Lord Wigley | 735 c1229-30 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I apologise profusely to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for missing the opening of the deba...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1232-3 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, it has been useful to have this discussion on foreign relations and the devolved Administr...
Lord Boyd of Duncansby | 735 c1230-2 (Link to this contribution) I can quite understand the noble and learned Lord's wish to progress matters. I am not entirely cl...
Lord Stephen | 735 c1229 (Link to this contribution) Before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may point out that indeed that has happened: a Member of ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) If the Scottish Government came forward with new tax proposals, they would have to meet the criteria...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1260-1 (Link to this contribution) The Minister said this is following Calman: it is not following Calman at all. As the noble Lord, Lo...
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock | 735 c1260 (Link to this contribution) With all these discussions that have taken place, can the Minister tell the Committee whether the Sc...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1245 (Link to this contribution) I entirely agree with the noble Lord. I suppose that my motive, as one who believes in the union and...
Lord Lyell | 735 c1208 (Link to this contribution) The noble and learned Lord is making one point. We have heard a great deal about the limits and the ...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1211 (Link to this contribution) So the proposition is that the duty lies on the Secretary of State for Transport to make amendments ...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1212 (Link to this contribution) I think the answer is that the noble Lord would fail the test, because in fact it is 60 miles an hou...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1212 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, motorway maintenance, for example, is certainly devolved to the Scottish Government. I rat...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1215-6 (Link to this contribution) I am suggesting that the noble Marquess, being a responsible citizen and knowing the circumstances, ...
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) Perhaps I may answer the questions that the noble Lord has already raised.
Lord Sassoon | 735 c1262 (Link to this contribution) I will give way in a moment. Perhaps I may try to answer some other questions first. The criteria ar...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1245 (Link to this contribution) That is a very fair challenge and I have no complete answer. In respect of taxation, I would argue t...
Lord Wallace of Tankerness | 735 c1292 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, can I perhaps be somewhat boring and brief at this time of night by focusing on the amendm...
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean | 735 c1225-6 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, I have two brief points to make. I very much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Lidd...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1240-1 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, the two noble Lords who have spoken on this section have made one point with which I very ...
Lord Steel of Aikwood | 735 c1241-2 (Link to this contribution) I was going to go on to say that we are actually seeing a trend towards the attributes of a one-part...
Lord Williamson of Horton | 735 c1229 (Link to this contribution) My Lords, as I attended 108 meetings of the Agriculture and Fisheries Council I must just very brief...
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard | 735 c1228-9 (Link to this contribution) I draw a distinction between the situation with a degree of devolved authority—maybe a little more i...
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