Scotland Bill

My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships' House is delighted to return to Committee on the Scotland Bill. It seems some time since we discussed these matters—and indeed it is, so we are glad of the opportunity to debate this important piece of constitutional legislation. The amendments I will move and speak to today are probing in nature. Amendments 44B, 45A and 45B seek to explore the apparent inconsistency between the names and the appointment processes of the Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner and the BBC Trust member for Scotland as they are set out in the Bill. Noble Lords had the benefit of a debate that took place in Committee on 2 February 2012 on Amendment 44A, which was moved by my noble friend Lord Sewel in an attempt to identify the reason for these apparent differences. I shall return to the Hansard report of that debate shortly; I give the Minister notice that I will draw on the words of his colleagues in the debate to support the amendments that I have tabled. I will say also that I welcome Amendment 45 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk of Douglas. I put my name to it as it exactly replicates an amendment tabled in another place by my honourable friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West, Tom Greatrex, but not debated because of insufficient time. Amendments 44B and 45A amend the title given in Clause 22 to the new commission role from the ““Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner”” to the, "““Crown Estate Commissioner for Scotland””." I recognise that in itself this is a minor change to the Bill, but it raises a wider point about the consistency of the new roles for Scotland that are created by this Bill. The proposal for the change in title is derived directly from the format established in Clause 20 with the, "““BBC Trust member for Scotland””—" not the ““Scottish BBC Trust member””. We believe that there should be consistency in the Bill in the naming of the new executive roles in Scotland and we ask the Minister why the decision was taken to use a different configuration for the title of the ““Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner””. The point about inconsistency becomes more important with the issue raised by Amendment 45B. The appointments process for the BBC Trust member for Scotland is that: "““A Minister of the Crown must not exercise without the agreement of the Scottish Ministers functions relating to selection for a particular appointment””." However, the appointments process proposed for the ““Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner”” is in, "““the recommendation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer””," in consultation with Scottish Ministers. This is the exact point that my noble friend Lord Sewel raised in the debate on 2 February. I am looking now at the Official Report and the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, in seeing off my noble friend's amendment. She said that, "““broadcasting remains a reserved matter””.—[Official Report, 2/2/12; col. 1785.]" So does the role of the Crown Estate Commission. She went on to say: "““It is our view that this””—" my noble friend's amendment— "““does not give the Scottish Government sufficient involvement in the appointment process. Securing the agreement of the Scottish Government is the appropriate way of involving them in the appointment process for the BBC Trust member for Scotland. The existing provision gives the Scottish Government an important and appropriate power and the UK Government do not wish to weaken this. I hope that this satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and I urge him to withdraw his amendment””.—[Official Report, 2/2/12; col. 1786.]" I draw exactly on that argument and wish to apply it to the appointment of the new Scottish commissioner for the Crown Estates. Amendment 45B brings the appointments process for the Scottish commissioner closer into line with that of the BBC Trust member by proposing that Scottish Ministers should make the recommendation, "““with the agreement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer””." These are not issues on which I will seek to test the opinion of the House. I raise them in an effort simply to elicit further information from the Minister about the reasons for these inconsistencies. I am fully prepared to accept that there may be good ones, but I cannot for the life of me at the moment think of what they are, but I wait with bated breath. I would also like to speak in support of Amendment 45, which replicates a provision tabled by my honourable friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West to probe the appointments criteria intended for the new role of the Scottish Crown Estate commissioner. At present, there has been no discussion and no detail presented about the sort of qualifications expected of this important role. I look forward to hearing from the noble and learned Lord what conversations the Government have had with the Crown Estate Commission with regard to the proposed new role and the appointments process and qualifications expected. In anticipation of this debate, I had inquiries made of the commissioner's office as to what qualifications would be expected. With all due respect to the answer I received, it did not make it any clearer to me exactly what would be expected of a commissioner, never mind the one who represented Scotland. As I am on my feet—and on a more general note—I want to raise another issue. The Secretary of State for Scotland told the Scotland Bill Committee last September that the Crown Estate Commission's operations in Scotland are, "““still up for debate and consideration””." In the context of the Scotland Bill I would like to ask the Minister what he believes the Secretary of State meant by this comment, and whether we might see any significant changes to the Bill in relation to the administration of the Crown Estate in Scotland before the Bill passes through the House. I know also that the Scottish Affairs Select Committee is currently undertaking an inquiry into the management of the Crown Estate and the role and working practice of the Crown Estate Commission in Scotland, and is expected to produce a report in mid-March. I would have passed over that without comment, but for the comments reported by the Prime Minister in his recent visit to Scotland. I would be grateful if in this context the Minister could inform the House whether the Government are open at least to the possibility of implementing any of the recommendations that may arise from the report of that committee in this Bill. The Scotland Bill Committee majority report sets out a detailed proposal for the devolution of wide competency over the Crown Estate. Again, in the context of the comments made in Scotland by the noble and learned Lord's right honourable friend the Prime Minister, I would like to ask the Minister what discussions he and his colleagues in Government have had with Scottish Ministers since the publication of the Committee's report, specifically in the issue of the Crown Estate in Scotland. Does he believe that any of the proposals put forward within the Scotland Bill Committee majority report meet the Secretary of State's three tests—namely, of being based on sound evidence; capable of establishing broad consensus; and, whereas clearly benefitting Scotland, not detrimental to the interests of the UK as a whole? Those are the three tests that are apparently to be applied in the future to anything that is fit for further devolution. I close by reminding the Minister that the Calman Commission was crystal clear in its opposition to the devolution of legislative competence for the Crown Estate in Scotland. I hope that the Minister will be able to give this House his assurances that the Government would not seek to go against this recommendation at this late stage in the legislative process.